Players you don’t want on your team: Weenies
I ain’t gonna lie. A semi-pro game of Team fortress 2 where the 2 teams are even and working together fighting tooth and nail for every objective on the map, brings some of the best moments of gaming for me.
Sadly, many times these moments doesn’t last the whole round and sudden events causes one team to steamroll the other. It could be that one absurdly good player who just joined the game that caused it or maybe some of your teammates leaved and suddenly you’re outnumbered.
But no, the most common occurrence ain’t these. Too many times, all i have to to do is press TAB to see the most common reason why; around >30% of our team are/or just picked snipers and/or spies.
Who knows why they’ve chosen them to begin with. Maybe it’s to counter that one player who dominates half of our team (in general there really is an unhealthy amount of obsession about counters in a game focused on teamwork), maybe it’s cause they are the only classes the players feel they are achieving something with, maybe they had good intentions and was trying to do something to help our team or maybe they saw a top player doing great with that class and thought they would achieve more by playing the same class .
These kind of snipers and spies are usually average players, probably nailing a few good kills of important targets, but otherwise nothing special. However, they all have one thing in common; they suck at class selection!
They are what I like to call weenies.
What makes these classes so attractive is pretty much their one-hit kill wonders, but many players fail to see that they are quite weaksauce compared to other classes once you strip them off these tools.
Does the snipers and spies on our team play quite well? Most certainly yes. Does that really justify that these players are actually half of our team? Not at all!
They have mediocre health, low to medium firepower on their alternative weapons and are mostly a minimal threat once engaged. Their only answer once that happens pretty much boils down to running away. They need distractions and those who provide those distractions are the sturdier classes fighting the other team directly (or can) AKA all the other classes (engineer is a minor exception though, we’ll go back to him later). The problem is when there are too few sturdy players fighting directly, the other team will have little problem mopping them up and continue on.
This doesn’t help snipers and spies in any way. Snipers have less time to shoot before getting engaged themselves and less time distracted means more time being aware of sneak attacks, making it harder for spies to be efficent.
I’m gonna repeat all this with an example. Ever heard about the law of inverse ninjutsu?
It basically says that the fewer ninjas there are, the more lethal they become.
Now I know this is pretty much what happens in fiction, but there is some truth to it. I mean, you don’t ever hear (or read) about an army of exceptional ninjas that have taken on an army full of heavily armed samurai now do you?
Like ninjas, spies and snipers are assassins. Their preferable method is to kill an target as quickly as possible without really engaging it at all, just their method of doing it is different. Once the sniper and spies themselves are engaged however, they have pretty much lost the fight.
This will be a problem once the main line of sturdy classes is gone and it would require a tremendous effort from the remaining spies and snipers to even halt the advance of the opposing team.
I guess we all have been a weenie at some time (even me) or still are. But please, if there is something your team usually doesn’t need, it’s more snipers and spies. They are niche classes great at turning a game around when played right, but it’s not someone that can be massed.
So if you decide to roll sniper or spy, you damn sure better know what you are doing!
Dishonourable mention: Engineers
The reason engineers are just given a mention is cause these kinds of weenies aren’t even nearly as common as the other 2. Reason may be that they don’t have a tool that can one-hit kill or that they may take more skill to play well with and make a difference, unless they turtle up. They are also not as helpless as snipers and spies since they have the generally more efficent shotgun, as well as having the sentry to help them in a fight if it’s availible. Still, engineers are usually not the kind of guy a team needs plenty of either.
I wouldn’t qualify engineers as weenies on defence. Sure, having 4 or 5 of them on a defending team ain’t exactly the healthiest way of defending, but as long they don’t build everything in one big farm as well as doing something else other than wacking stuff it’s kinda fine (though there are beter methods for defence).
To many engineers on the attacking team however, not so good.
Engineers on an attacking team usually do 2 things; they either play pod (creating a forward base) or play offensive and try to sneak in to cause havoc (flanking them or ambushing their supply lines).
Neither should there be too many of. Offensive engineers are pretty much in the same position as spies in that they need distractions. Although 2 or 3 can get a sentry up faster than one can, having too many of them yields predictable results. One engineer playing pod is usually plenty as well.
What about the scouts?
I wouldn’t call scouts a weenie. Unlike the other 3 they can dart in and out of the action, constantly harrassing the enemy team. They are far from helpless in a direct fight and are only a problem for their own team when there aren’t any sturdier classes on it.
Scout assault and “Sentry hill” doesn’t mix well.
On the other hand, scout rushes can be pretty brutal.
Thank you for your time.
Credit to Tygris for the g-mod pictures.
Stumble it!
The Black Watch responded on 28 Jan 2010 at 3:18 am #
Too true…It gets incredibly frustrating when you have 4 mediocre sniper/spy players on a team of 9 or 10.
General Goose responded on 28 Jan 2010 at 3:28 am #
Good article. I guess it all depends on the situation really, especially when it comes to Snipers, Spies, Scouts and Engies.
And what. Am I doing. At the top of the scoreboard?
Dr. Mikard responded on 28 Jan 2010 at 3:33 am #
Hah, imagine what the Medics feel when 3/4 of their teammates are spies and snipers…
I don't hear voices I hear God responded on 28 Jan 2010 at 3:37 am #
I’ve won a game on gravel pit by scout rushing. And defended A beautifully with an all-engineer team (two of which later switched to soldier and pyro, which may have been the success). This was on a reddit server with Mr. fucking Popo, a very skilled player, on the opposing team.
Ant responded on 28 Jan 2010 at 3:41 am #
Only exception is when entire team are spies or snipers, that is gimmick style of play, and thus fun.
Tesla Tank responded on 28 Jan 2010 at 3:43 am #
Hah, I just watched the movie Ninja Assassin today.
As a personal rule, I’ll only ever play sniper if there isn’t already one on my team, and often switch class if someone else picks up sniping.
nafongoa responded on 28 Jan 2010 at 3:57 am #
if there’s 2 snipers or spies, i make it my duty to be the 3rd because the tears that are shed are delicious.
HeRMeS responded on 28 Jan 2010 at 4:01 am #
I do the same and that’s a problem.
Example : No spy in your team on Goldrush in defense. So you go spy because it can be really annoying for cart pusher, sentry builder, etc.
10 sec later, you see that two other players are now spy, resulting in less defense, more adverse spychecking etc.
So, you HAVE to change class, although you were the first to take it and did your job.
That’s maybe the thing i hate the most in FFA servers: people are not able to equilibrate a team, and if YOu do so, you are always forced to play a class you are not good at, or really dont want to (after 5 rounds in a raw as medic for exemple), juste because other players are stuck in their one class they want to play…
Personnaly i whine in the mic for medics, or enginners until someone get bored and so what i say
.
Axon responded on 28 Jan 2010 at 4:10 am #
I hate it too, but I love it when the other team is going Sniper/Spy only, such easy Demoman targets.
Laerin responded on 28 Jan 2010 at 4:26 am #
Wow that screenshot is old…
First of all I don’t see how this…
‘They are also not as helpless as snipers and spies since they have the generally more efficent shotgun, as well as having the sentry to help them in a fight if it’s availible.’
…causes engineers to take more skill. Any soldier can spam rockets and get kills but snipers and spies can’t so I think that is the main reason people do badly as them.
Rest of it I agree with though except although it is probably true, I don’t like the fact that if you can 3 soldiers, you can’t have 3 snipers – they are both classes of equal worth.
Oh and you misspelt Tygrys’ name.
Zorgulon responded on 28 Jan 2010 at 5:05 am #
@Laerin
A team with three Soldiers will generally fare much better than a team with three Snipers- for you to say they are of equal worth is frankly dead wrong, regardless of how easy either is to play. Three soldiers, even mediocre ones, plus a decent medic can produce an almost unstoppable push and complete an objective. Three mediocre snipers may cut down half the team with the element of surprise (if they play offensively, which they are highly unlikely to), but they lack the brute force to follow it up, and probably couldn’t do the job any better than one or two decent ones.
The core of the team is combat classes- spies and snipers need the rest of their team to serve as bait or distraction to hit their full potential.
If there are too many spies/snipers, not only do they reduce each other’s efficiency by poaching each other’s targets (one skilled spy and one skilled sniper apiece can basically fill these classes’ niche), they also draw focus on each other. One Spy may make them roll a Pyro to foil him, but three definitely will, and no-one get’s much backstabbing done when the map becomes an open air crematorium for secret agents.
Bullet Sponge responded on 28 Jan 2010 at 5:44 am #
Good piece,
I can’t remember how many times I’m looking at our scoreboard and going “why the hell do we have so many spies!?”. Sadly it also seems to be that when things go bad or time starts waining, it’s always the lone medic on my side to start this half-hearted weenie rush.
Bacon Rage responded on 28 Jan 2010 at 6:43 am #
The oldest problem in the TF2 world. One time I directly told some snipers to switch to something else against a team that was REPEATEDLY SCOUT RUSHING, and one asked back, clearly a child, “Why?” I explained, they did not switch.
Weenies are mostly/all kids, and will not listen to reason.
vwtifuljoe responded on 28 Jan 2010 at 6:57 am #
i think that the mass amount of snipers and spies can be traced to 2 main reasons. certainly there are a lot of other factors, but mainly its military shooters and WoW rogues.
there is always an advantage of distance in any game, but it really comes into play in military simulators. be farther away and you are less of a target, means you have to worry about incoming fire a lot less. scoped weapons make up for this disadvantage, so many players may see sniper in tf2 and equate many of the things they have thought from other games.
with wow rogues, they want to be the dps, the stabby stabby. they dream of popping out of the shadows and getting 5 kills from a kart pushing team. but they dont realize the work and patience involved in the whole setup.
i think that most people also think that these are the “easiest” classes, and they are right on certain counts. snipers dont have to worry about tactics (what individuals do), on the large part. spies dont have to lend a great deal of thought to strategy (what the team does). they also see one really good player dominate others, and want to emulate that.
im not saying that these classes arent hard, but that the pick up and play aspects about them make them very easy to want to emulate.
what i really hate are when there are useless sniper battles going on. when snipers from either team zero in on just the other snipers and no one else. it just becomes a peak-a-boo match. think the bridge on 2fort.
ArmsAreLoud responded on 28 Jan 2010 at 8:33 am #
It’s really frustrating to play Medic and for your entire team to be lacking in decent pockets.
I basically agree with the article, though I disagree with the part on Scouts. In Pub play, playing Scout well takes too much skill for having more then a couple of them being any good; with all the rocket, nade, and arrow spam flying around, you better be pretty dang good at dodging if you want to play Scout in a pub.
Jason_webb responded on 28 Jan 2010 at 9:06 am #
Hear hear! When you play 2fort or a payload map and all you have are…..well spies and snipers…..what do you expect? What’s almost as bad but rather tasteless, as you said, is to gang up on sentries, spies, snipers, and heavies (sometimes). Not much skill involved even if it works.
In my defense, I sometimes switch to spy out of necessity. So on the scoreboard I’ll be in the top 3 or 4 but will be a spy to try to take out a pesky engineer who’s turtling. Or team up to take out the infinitely more annoying engi farm
All in all though, good article. I’m glad you addressed this (and nice analogy to the inverse ninja law lol. it does make sense).
Guan Yuber responded on 28 Jan 2010 at 9:50 am #
I think it’s interesting you mentioned “counters in a game focused on teamwork.” I know the whole “TEAM Fortress 2″ thing is pounded into our brain on this site, but the idea of “counters” is too, so it’s interesting to see someone say that one takes precedent over the other.
I only play Spy if there’s no one else playing Spy, unless it’s a 12v12, then my maximum is 1.
orange!Gamer responded on 28 Jan 2010 at 10:51 am #
@nafongoa:You, Sir, are a troll, and should be lobotomized…
@Ant: That’s what Funhouses are for…
I love you Mr. Yellow for writing this. Yet, bad players don’t come to places like this, thus they will keep doing it…
I usually pick ont of those ONLY if there is none and the team is more than 6 people… Why can’t they just change? I mean, if we are being owned time after time, they should realize somethings wrong. Is it the soldier? No, he’s no top. Is it the medic? He’s healing good. Is it the Engie? No one got trhu the advance base…
Then it obviously the 3 snipers and 5 spys! (Yes, I’ve seen this happen) 3 Of you doesn’t even have a point! CUT. IT. OUT.
Damn the Weenies….
Ohrice responded on 28 Jan 2010 at 11:53 am #
I hope those grammar mistakes are intentional.
Mutated responded on 28 Jan 2010 at 2:16 pm #
I love these pictures.
Oh, yeah, and the article was good too.
Laerin responded on 28 Jan 2010 at 3:46 pm #
I know Zorg, I was just saying how it’s quite annoying that there is this imbalance.
Bazinga responded on 28 Jan 2010 at 5:28 pm #
Great article… BUT
Does the snipers and spies on our team play quite well?
I reread this sentence at least 10 times until I realized it wasn’t my fizzick saturated brain that was dying
Spydra responded on 28 Jan 2010 at 7:32 pm #
Seriously, did anyone even edit this? There are only a couple mistakes and it’s a good article and all, but those mistakes are obvious.
ExAstris responded on 28 Jan 2010 at 11:34 pm #
Despite the grammatical errors, I thought this post was pretty good. Definitely it has an important message about class selection. In a more serious game, I will always try to find the best combination of “class I’m good at” and “class my team needs.”
It’s not that you should never take spy or sniper; just remember their roles and if your team is suffering, or there are already one or two, take something else.
Alex responded on 29 Jan 2010 at 1:47 am #
lol @the heavy raping the scouts
robert64 responded on 29 Jan 2010 at 1:47 am #
lolol
Helis responded on 29 Jan 2010 at 2:35 am #
Moral of the story: KNOW YOUR FREAKING ROLE.
Classes yes? Play them as you should.
DoomGuy responded on 29 Jan 2010 at 4:11 am #
I think the appeal for sniper is that he’s sadly the perfect coward class. That, coupled with the huntman and bodyshots (usually both) lead to him being played constantly.
I think Valve could do with making Battle sniping more viable, and more rewarding.
Sandman responded on 29 Jan 2010 at 5:32 am #
One other scenario that sometimes happens: Right around the time you die, you notice that there are no snipers on your team, resulting in your team being owned by snipers who have little to worry about. So you (being a good sniper and good teammate) switch. Then you realize when your wave spawns that 3 other guys did as well.
Result: 4 snipers, whining about it from teammates, etc.
I have to say, I’m fine with this case, assuming it lasts only a minute or so. The responsible thing to do would be to take out their snipers and coordinate with the other snipers on your team to see which two will switch away.
Secret Agent Clank! responded on 29 Jan 2010 at 6:47 am #
DoomGuy, pick up CSS sometime and I guarantee you will NEVER complain about bodyshots ever again.
<3
DoomGuy responded on 29 Jan 2010 at 9:55 am #
@ clank.
Why the hell do you think I like TF2? It’s a amazingly well balanced fps without the usual drudgery and bullshit of games like CSS and MW2. Sadly, the fact that sniper is appealing to LEETLE BABEH COWARDS means that too many people play him, meaning there’s no combat classes. And that’s what the article was going on about. I just wish that final bit of CSS style sniping was taken out.
Helis responded on 29 Jan 2010 at 12:57 pm #
@DoomGuy
People think playing the Sniper or the Spy makes them l33t. It doesn’t, it just makes them look like idiots.
-=Pvt. Gomer Pyle=- responded on 29 Jan 2010 at 3:00 pm #
Anybody play Doublecross? Fucking spy and sniper is the only goddamn class you see on that fucking map. (And it’s my favorite one to play too)
Mr Yellow. Edit your goddamn article. It reads like a YouTube comment.
Mr. Noobinator responded on 29 Jan 2010 at 3:42 pm #
they should put an optional code or something that limits the number of spies/snipers in a team. that way, everybody’s happy.
oh, some people actually thought that having more spies increase the chance of ‘turning the tide’.
DoomGuy responded on 29 Jan 2010 at 7:23 pm #
@Helis
That too. They also seem to think that Snipers deserve bodyshots.
“HURR EVERY OTHER CLASS HAS A CRUTCH”
Usually those crutchs aren’t actually useful at all and those people have to get up close. Snipers don’t.
“HURR WHAT IF IT’S A SCOUT”
Shouldn’t the scout be a soft counter to snipers? He would be if bodyshots weren’t a option, but since you can just click on the body, that’s it.
It’s a shame, because the Sniper should be long range in exchange for precision and low rate of fire (If you can’t see the head, tough shit, it’s just like a badly placed sentry) instead of long range and fuck it I’ll shoot them in the torso.
Laerin responded on 30 Jan 2010 at 2:16 am #
I’d like to half of you whiners here play those classes
DoomGuy responded on 30 Jan 2010 at 2:55 am #
@Laerin
I play half those classes. And the other half. And good at them all.
Point is, a good sniper is awesome, but a few annoying mechanics makes him utterly overused. You don’t need 3 snipers. You need only 1.
“i’d like to half” hurr durr
Laerin responded on 30 Jan 2010 at 6:00 am #
Mistake aside, I said half as in I know some people can play sniper well and still call them crap.
Now I don’t know if you can actually play them as well as you say you can but the fact that you’re saying and/or are agreeing with people who do say that snipers and spies take less skill than other classes is complete bullshit. When you top a scoreboard as a sniper while playing on less-than-24-man-server with people who aren’t pubs, I’ll give your opinion more credit.
PC Major responded on 30 Jan 2010 at 10:33 am #
This is what will normally happen:
1. No spies sniper
2. Someone goes spy or sniper and does really well
3. Next thing you know, two other people who suck have gone spy/sniper
DoomGuy responded on 30 Jan 2010 at 10:34 am #
Spies are fine, since they have so much going against them, and they are ultimately luck’s bitches. It’s a tough class.
Snipers are also pretty hard, but think about it. You’re using a precision hitscan lag compensated weapon. You’re way, way, WAY behind the front lines. You’re probably covered by sentries. You have no worries of ever getting in danger, which means that it appeals to cowards. Yes, it takes skill to headshot, but it’s not that hard when you’re unchallenged by every other class apart from spy. I like Snipers, but the assumption it’s THE pro class is just silly. Let’s also not forget the fact that the person on the recieving end can’t stop you. He can move about, but you have infinite oppurtunity to improve your aim. You can only move so fast.
Having said that, Sniper is a class that does take skill, but in no way is he useful enough to make up a quarter of a team. If you have a class that has a high skill floor until he becomes useful like sniper, you can’t afford to give them crutches for bad players to fall back on. Which is why it’d be far better if bodyshots were made less useful and snipers were encouraged to try and get as close to the front line as possible (instead of waiting for quality targets to come to you, why not have you come to them?) without getting killed.
Laerin responded on 30 Jan 2010 at 9:43 pm #
‘You’re way, way, WAY behind the front lines. You’re probably covered by sentries. You have no worries of ever getting in danger, which means that it appeals to cowards’
PLAY A REAL SERVER
DoomGuy responded on 30 Jan 2010 at 10:14 pm #
You’re missing the point. Sniper has two crutches: Bodyshots and his long range. This means that people play them, even though they can’t aim for shit, just so that they’ll never die. Sorting out those problems will mean that all the bad snipers move to more useful classes, whch means that snipers won’t be stacked so damn much.
Viral responded on 30 Jan 2010 at 11:56 pm #
You guys really need an editor for articles like this.
If you’re interested, hit me up.
My e-mail is provided.
Tygrys responded on 31 Jan 2010 at 12:00 pm #
Yay for nitpickers…
Seriously guys – who gives a fudge about grammar, if the article is well written and covers an EXTREMELY rare topic. This article was really needed for some people to realize how dumb they act in the game, and how do you repay the author? By nitpicking? Add to that Mr Yellow’s first language isn’t English and editors can also overlook some stuff. On top of that we are just humans – we are bound to make mistakes.
And I’m sure all of you, who are picking out all those mistakes, even though some of your’s first language IS English, make just as many mistakes as Mr Yellow, when writing a really extensive article like this one.
You should be all ashamed of yourselfes.
-=Pvt. Gomer Pyle=- responded on 31 Jan 2010 at 12:52 pm #
“”Laerin responded on 30 Jan 2010 at 9:43 pm #
‘You’re way, way, WAY behind the front lines. You’re probably covered by sentries. You have no worries of ever getting in danger, which means that it appeals to cowards’
PLAY A REAL SERVER”"
Agreed. Once people see me getting headshot after headshot, right around the time I’m dominating 3-4 people is when half their team goes sniperspyscout and I find i can’t live more than 30 seconds. I actually have screenshots where a spy and a scout are both trying to taunt-kill me while I’m aiming, usually after one of RED’s 45 snipers just shot me in the foot for the third time. It’s aggravating. Playing sniper doesn’t guarantee longevity at all, quite the opposite. BUT, if you’re a good sniper, you can turn 2/3 of the opposing team into a hunting squad specifically looking for YOU…and that is an invaluable aid to your team.
Viral responded on 31 Jan 2010 at 1:23 pm #
@Tygrys
The article itself is good, I don’t think anyone outright said that because of the grammatical mistakes it’s any worse. Having good grammar just adds a degree of readability, and that’s always a good thing.
Tygrys responded on 31 Jan 2010 at 1:49 pm #
@Viral
I see your point, but others were acting completely different than you. That’s why I wrote my wall of text there.
DoomGuy responded on 31 Jan 2010 at 8:30 pm #
@ pvt gomer pyle
Mkay.
Please explain how having a insta-kill hitscan long range rifle makes your more vulnerable. No, seriously, tell me how that works.
Also, on our server, everyone rolls turtle engi. Not a problem, except that everyone on OUR team is being weenies, and there is absoulutely no tools to kill those sentries, meaning that the only way to kill the sniper is to have ANOTHER sniper. Which turns into a WCS battle. Even when you have a proper team placement no your team, that sniper will last a long time. No other class apart from spy and sniper can really take him out consistantly, and once the sentry farms are placed, spy isn’t useful anymore.
But, yeah, nice job pulling the HURR YOU MUST SUCK DEN DURR card, laerin.
-=Pvt. Gomer Pyle=- responded on 01 Feb 2010 at 12:16 am #
Does DoomGuy actually play TF2 or just comment?
DoomGuy responded on 01 Feb 2010 at 1:47 am #
@pvt. gomer pyle.
:/
About 150 hours playing.
Wrex responded on 01 Feb 2010 at 10:44 am #
Your spelling and grammar is appalling. Not a terrible article, but it’s hard to take you seriously as a result.
Ted responded on 02 Feb 2010 at 11:49 am #
From your article it says: “What makes these classes so attractive is pretty much their one-hit kill wonders, but many players fail to see that they are quite weaksauce compared to other classes once you strip them off these tools..” lolwut? If you take away a key componet of a classes tools of course hes going to be usless! For example if you take the Soldier Rocket launcher away , or take the medic`s medi gun away. Take the demoman`s stick launcher and pipebomb launcher away. What do you get? a useless class that arguement is quite invalid. But I do agre that you dont need more of two of spy or sniper but the same can still be said of all classes. Other then those things you didnt think out real well, nice article! Oh and excuse my grammer please.
lols responded on 03 Feb 2010 at 5:49 pm #
No, no limits on Spies/Snipers. If people want to roll Spy/Sniper, more power to ‘em, even if you end up with a whole team of either class. It ain’t Valve’s place to tell us which class we can or can’t play.
DoomGuy responded on 04 Feb 2010 at 5:02 am #
@ lols
Well, considering the fact that if both teams roll spy and sniper, the game is utterly dull, and ruins it for any soldiers or demos or whatever who want a action packed fast-paced game, and instead finds some bad snipers and fail spies, I think Valve may want to design it to discourage all that crap so that we can get some good games.
-=Pvt. Gomer Pyle=- responded on 05 Feb 2010 at 6:07 pm #
I’d love to know of any class capped servers that I could play on
Viral responded on 05 Feb 2010 at 6:07 pm #
My offer still stands, I’m happy to be an editor.
Viral responded on 05 Feb 2010 at 6:08 pm #
@-=Pvt. Gomer Pyle=-
The only ones I know of are bball servers.
And they’re only good for so long.