The Four Kinds of Engineering (Part 1 – The Turtle)
The Engineer is possibly the most misunderstood class in Team Fortress 2, and that’s saying a lot when people still claim that there’s not such thing as a skilled Pyro or a useful Sniper. But while people generally know what each class does and the different kinds of play styles for each, people’s usual interpretation of an Engineer’s play style is “Build sentry, build dispenser, ensure neither dies while the sentry guards an objective” and that skill is only down to how well they deal with Spies and how well they place their sentry. And so the Engineer is generally regarded as just something you have on defence to stop Scouts from capping everything.
Some of the more enlightened will recognise two Engineer play styles, the second being that of the offensive Engineer- an Engineer who goes around building ambush sentries to confuse, delay, and weaken the enemy.
However, while these are the two extremes of Engineer playing, they are not the only way to play the class. How you do that, as the Engineer would say, falls within the purview of your conundrums of philosophy.
As is rather heavily implied by the title, there are four basic ways to play the Engineer, although each has variations, and there are a few Engineer players who don’t fit any of those four groups. Each play style is based on a different interpretation of what the Engineer is useful for. The Turtle Engineer, The Pod Engineer, The Aggressive Engineer, and The Offensive Engineer. The first one we’ll cover is the famous Turtle Engineer, the original play style of Engineers and still the most common, especially on attack/defend maps like Dustbowl.
The Turtle Engineer
Building of Choice: Level 3 Sentry
Weapon of Choice: Wrench
Personal Philosophy: “You don’t cap a point covered by a level 3 sentry, and a level 3 stops momentum pronto.”
The basic strategy of the Turtle Engineer is, as covered above, “Build a sentry and dispenser, upgrade them, keep them alive.” While it’s simple, it’s hard to argue that a defence isn’t stronger with a level 3 sentry guarding the objective or an important chokepoint, and if the team helps out by guarding the sentry from Spies and Demomen, it can form the cornerstone of a powerful defence. This is also the type of Engineer that benefits most from other Engineers- two sentries can cover each other’s weaknesses, and even a good Spy will have a bit of trouble dealing with two Engineers at once with sentries covering each other- stab and sap won’t work as well, and they can split up with one unsapping while the other attacks him.
Additionally, the more Engineers there are, the more sentries there are, adding knock back to ubers and killing people in the range faster, and the more dispensers there are, meaning that if a sentry is destroyed the Engineers can work together to quickly get a new one built and upgraded using metal from the surviving dispensers.
However, while this remains the most popular style for a reason, it is not without its faults. The Turtle Engineer can be cleared out by an ubered Demoman without a lot of effort, and in most cases it will take a long time to set up a new base- the Turtle Engineer is by far the slowest to set up of all the types of Engineers, and so suffers in fast paced games. Additionally, on any map where the team’s objective is something more than just defend, Turtle Engineering leads to stalemates and while it stops your enemy from winning, it doesn’t help your team win. In many maps, especially CTF, Turtle Engineering can also be very tedious, with long stretches of doing nothing but sitting and waiting for an enemy. If the team doesn’t help a Turtle Engineer, they’ll often get constantly overrun by people attacking their sentry from out of range, or a spy attacking at the same time as another player, an experience which can be very, very frustrating and rarely helps your team.
Because of these weaknesses, Turtle Engineers are a rare sight on most 5CP maps (except for the last point on Badlands), and almost never seen on Arena maps, due to the long set up time for their bases. The exception to this is Lumberyard, where a sentry can be built that covers the middle point without running directly into the enemy team. This type of Engineering is also arguably the easiest, since simply putting a sentry down on a point and hitting it can be effective. However, skilled Turtle Engineers will find excellent sentry spots and be able to build and more importantly re-build their bases rapidly to keep a constant obstacle for the attackers. And if you ever doubt the usefulness of a Turtle Engineer, have fun trying to take out a sentry farm.
So that wraps up the famous defensive-centred Turtle Engineer. Next time we’ll look at his polar opposite, The Offensive Engineer.
Stumble it!
The Black Watch responded on 02 Oct 2009 at 3:08 pm #
Whats this? A new article? Amazing!
Anyways, silliness aside. I look forward to the other three parts.
Jackal responded on 02 Oct 2009 at 3:14 pm #
An article about engineers?! I suspect many flames ahead… good job Max
himmelstoss responded on 02 Oct 2009 at 3:33 pm #
Totally takes thought to play turtle engineer
Chucrute responded on 02 Oct 2009 at 4:16 pm #
Official Turtle Engineer Logo
http://media.nowpublic.net/images//42/d/42d0feaae855daf50a97cfec27d35ef9.jpg
Lol
Gee-Man responded on 02 Oct 2009 at 4:27 pm #
I personally enjoy playing Engie occasionally, but I can sense the flaming that’s gonna follow.
Anyways, I don’t have anything against turtle Engies…provided they don’t turtle in an idiotic way. A well-placed and well-maintained sentry can easily hold a point for the duration of an entire game provided they have the right support. Shame Engies rarely get that support.
Lord Zurkov responded on 02 Oct 2009 at 5:03 pm #
Nothing new so far, but I can’t wait to see the other parts.
gelugon2105 responded on 02 Oct 2009 at 6:05 pm #
Yep, the one thing that separates a good Turtle Engineer from the rest is smart placement. That pic of Dustbowl, Point B, First Stage shows the actual best place for the first sentry gun defending that point.
melkor responded on 02 Oct 2009 at 6:53 pm #
Great new series. I know off and turtle engie very well thanks to your previous guide, but the other two styles sound interesting.
Nice!
Eldrake responded on 02 Oct 2009 at 8:07 pm #
You might include something about how important it is to get rid of both the Engineer and the Sentry.
Once there was a Sniper who killed me while I was working on my sentry. The sentry was in his sight. He was still alive. He didn’t even try to aim at it.
When I respawned and returned, the sentry was still up and working.
Eldrake responded on 02 Oct 2009 at 8:08 pm #
*damnit, I should have put a ‘wanna’ right after the ‘might’ and before the ‘include’.
crabcore responded on 02 Oct 2009 at 10:20 pm #
the question on my mind is; will engies get changes that better allow ‘attacking’ with an engie, portable sentry robot dog anyone?
jrhather responded on 02 Oct 2009 at 11:03 pm #
“Next time we’ll look at his bi-polar opposite, The Offensive Engineer.”
Fixed
jrhather responded on 02 Oct 2009 at 11:05 pm #
@ crabcore:
I’ve recently played on a server that had some Starcraft mod or other….and portable sentries.
It’s a very scary thing when an engie can run through a crowd with a level 3 on his head and easily clear out 10 people that weren’t expecting a rushing wall of doom.
Lobsterlair responded on 02 Oct 2009 at 11:46 pm #
@crabcore:
there is that PDQ in development which allows buildings to be assembled in half the time.
Teekink responded on 03 Oct 2009 at 12:01 am #
I’ve been waiting for an article series about the engineer. But it doesn’t look like it will talk about how other people must change their playstyle to make engi’s useful.
Comissar Cain responded on 03 Oct 2009 at 5:38 am #
Hoo boy, ‘offensive Engineers’. That should be fun. To be blunt, I’ve never seen one that made me think “Gee, I’m glad that guy is playing offensive Engi and not Pyro/Spy/Heavy, he’s wracking up so many kills and being so useful to his team!”
There might be one or two out there legitmately terrifying, but most ‘Offensive Engies’ I see are people who saw that video, said ‘cool!’ and went out to do similar things, with no real idea how to do it, often inhabiting the middle of the Scoreboard–at best.
Atomizer responded on 03 Oct 2009 at 12:34 pm #
@Comissar Cain
Honestly, I dont think an offensive engies point is to top the scoreboard.
Though I may be misunderstanding something, I play an offensive engineer alot when im on the attacking team in a payload map, by getting teleporters down as close to the frontlines as I can, yet generally out of view so they dont get destroyed within seconds of having it up, and moving them as needed as the cart advances.
I also try to do the same with my despensers so my teammates can fall back to get quick ammo/healing.
And usually when I get a sentry up its only to support the lines when the cart stops moving for awhile
Alien Rope Burn responded on 03 Oct 2009 at 4:39 pm #
Perhaps this is covered in a later category (aggressive?), but one of the my tricks of “turtle” engineering is to be proactive, and not wait for your sentry to sight in on enemies, but wander nearby with your shotgun and pistol if not under assault. You won’t get kills necessarily, but it helps to be able to ambush demomen when they think they’re going to be safe picking off your sentry, or in general help out teammates defending further ahead.
There’s some risk with spies doing this, but generally getting your stuff sapped is only problematic when other classes are assaulting simultaneously, or alternately when everybody around you is spy-blind. “Proactive” turtling to me is way more effective – and fun – rather than just waving your wrench around and hoping a spy walks into it.
Clan SNAP » Blog Archive » Meet Ali responded on 03 Oct 2009 at 6:50 pm #
[...] Ever adaptable, Ali is equally at home spearheading group maneuvers or when nestled behind a barricade of mechanised machinations. But make no mistake, an Engi’s life is rarely [...]
ComssiarCain responded on 03 Oct 2009 at 7:54 pm #
@Atomizer.
Sorry, I wasn’t quite being clear. “offensive Engineer” in terms of being an actual Offensive-minded Engineer who builds sentries as bulwarks and Dispensers as re-arm points, as well as Teleporters is a valuable member of the team. I’m referring strictly to ‘Surprise’ Engineers, who rarely build secondary devices and devote their time to setting up Sentries (rarely past level 1) with the intent of surprising players. The upshot is they spend an inordinate amount of time either waiting for some unlucky player to stumble on them, or end up spending an inordinate amount of time dead.)
REAL good Offensive Engineers are a credit to team. ‘Ambushing’ Engineers, as popular as they are, I’ve never encountered and felt they were really as helpful as they thought they were.
Tyke responded on 04 Oct 2009 at 1:35 am #
Fantastic article Max! Can’t wait for the rest.
Alien Rope Burn responded on 04 Oct 2009 at 3:00 am #
Being a “surprise” engineer is something you have to fold into one of your other map roles – it’s highly map-dependent, and it works best on smaller, tighter maps like in Arena or KotH, where you can get both surprise and utility together, and not just score a few novelty kills.
Corodan responded on 04 Oct 2009 at 7:49 am #
I expect massive amounts of teleporter abuse.
Great job, Max!
Comissar Cain responded on 04 Oct 2009 at 7:57 am #
@Alien
Yeah, I’ll submit that Arena is a whole different animal and the classic ‘turtle’ or bulwark style of Engi just doesn’t have much of a point (a Dispenser might help but putting it in a position that most players would find useful is extremely difficult). However, I’m still worried that from a time/resources benefit, better time might be spent getting kills as something else.
GoldCrusader responded on 04 Oct 2009 at 3:37 pm #
Quite frankly, I think a sentry farm/turtle engy is useless against a team armed with teamwork. Even a sentry farm is no match for two uberdemos with competent medics.
ComssiarCain responded on 04 Oct 2009 at 4:47 pm #
@GoldCrusader.
Yes. a Single Engi sentry farming is certainly useless against the combined effort of FOUR PLAYERS AND THE HARD COUNTER TO THE SENTRY. Even two are useless against FOUR players. The job of the rest of the TEAM is put enough pressure on the offense so that two Medics and two Demos don’t get to relax long enough to charge TWO Ubers, and be able to compensate for when they do. It’s like saying “I don’t think a Heavy at long range with his gun spun up is any use against a Sniper.” Of COURSE he’s not. but if said sentryfarmers are on a team with good teamwork, they’re a vital part of area denial. Teamwork goes both ways.
Alien Rope Burn responded on 05 Oct 2009 at 2:52 am #
A single good demoman (or more rarely, soldier or spy) can wipe out two sentries with the right angle and little difficulty, no uber. It’s the job of the team – and the engie itself – to plug those holes in their defense. If the sentry is in the position to fight back with a supporting engie (either wrenching or contributing with shotgun), it will kill everything that isn’t ubered in its range. Hell, I’ve seen a lot of scouts and pyros rush that level 1 sentry, figuring L1 vs. rush = wrecked sentry. What they forget is L1 + engie shotgun vs. rush = dead.
Furthermore, an engineer that refuses to adapt to the situation, and just rebuilds in the same bad place over and over like he’s going to have a different outcome the next time that expert demoman spawns, is the worst sort of turtle engineer. Or, alternately, the engie that builds in some area the enemy will just march around. If that sentry isn’t doing its job (denying them a point or getting kills), blow it and move to a new spot. Building sentries isn’t worthwhile in and of itself.
GoldCrusader responded on 05 Oct 2009 at 8:35 am #
@ComssiarCain
When I say “sentry farm” I mean more than one/two engies. I mean a LOT of engies all turtling in the same area. Obviously, one engy is useless against four players. And who’s saying the medics can’t charge up the uber in the comfort of their own base/respawn room, and then charge in?
ComissarCain responded on 07 Oct 2009 at 6:54 am #
Any time four Engies build four sentries within an immediate area, they’re being totally useless. At the VERY most, two in the immediate area provides FINE coverage, and the other Engis would be much better of setting up either a cascading set (so that after you kill the two and push forward a bit, you run into another full set) or attempting to follow offense and push forward.
Medics standing in the spawn room are shooting themselves in the foot. Yeah, they’re charging in (relative) safety, but in the meantime nobody is getting healed by them, giving the enemy players plenty of opportunity to push the offense further back and increasing the risk the Medic will have to pop it early enroute. And AGAIN, I stand by what I say: At that point it’s up to the other players to ensure that the momentary push is pushed back long enough for the Engi to set up shop again–it’s not the Engi’s job, at that point.
GoldCrusader responded on 07 Oct 2009 at 10:31 am #
You have a point about the medics charging in the spawn room, and I will give you that. And I’ll admit, you’ve got me pretty good on most of those points. I was running based off of usual Engy farms (four in an immediate area) and not a cascade like you described. Oh hell, you got me in all the points. Good debate, I’ll try to treat turtles with a bit more respect. Except for the ones farming (4+ in an immediate area), they get no respect.
ComissarCain responded on 07 Oct 2009 at 1:03 pm #
Hah. Oh yeah, feel free to yell at any Engi’s who set up 4 in an immediate area. I frequently get annoyed at the Engi who feels the need to set up a Sentry RIGHT next to the other one. I am driven absolutely nuts when I see this because it is exactly as you describe: A single Demo-man Medic combo comes in and just blasts the whole thing. Since it was 4 BLOODY Engineers (often in a 12 man team) that’s 1/3 of the damn team that just got wiped out and did nothing as a result.
I will also say in fairness to your point: Some Engineers just don’t *get* it when playing defensively. and to kind of agree with you: Forget Demo/Medic combos, you know the bad kind of Turtle Engis? The one that have a spy walk right up to the Turret, sap it, and backstab the Engi who mindlessly repairs it later–I’ve seen people do that with the Spy doing it RIGHT in front of him.
Stuff like that is enough to make you swap teams, swear to god.
Commander Masked responded on 10 Oct 2009 at 12:48 pm #
How could you NOT use THIS pic?
http://tf2wiki.net/w/images/4/4d/Turtlingtothemax.jpg
qeex responded on 20 Oct 2009 at 6:28 am #
can we expect parst 2-4 soon?
I’m really looking forward to them.
James Bulwharks responded on 29 Oct 2009 at 12:15 pm #
i really like this article i love playing engie and i usually end up turtling so its nice to get a betteridea of how to do it plus im waiting for the next 3 articles so i can get an idea of how to play those types effectively
Chalkster responded on 27 Dec 2009 at 3:07 pm #
What ever happened to this?
SirMax responded on 28 Dec 2009 at 2:40 am #
The next article is meant to be a collaborative effort between Mr. Yellow and ChozoFury. Both of them have probably been busy with exams and such, but now that the holidays have come it should (hopefully) be along at some point.