Useless?
So, it’s been a while since I’ve written anything of substance. You can blame work for that. But something that I happenned upon today made me think long and hard.
The Lowdown
I stumbled my way onto this thread, while perusing the Steam forums and the “knowledge” contained within them. It struck a chord with me, because I use and love many of the weapons labeled as “useless” or “weak” by this thread. So, without further ado…
The Rundown: The SMG
“It’s the SMG. Definitly”
Now, spelling errors aside, lets examine why people might think the SMG is useless. Alright, starting with stats, the SMG does 8-12 damage per shot at point blank, 4-6 damage per shot at medium range, and between 4 and 5 damage at long range. It does 11 damage per shot on a minicrit, and does 24 damage per shot on a full crit. The SMG has a fire rate of about 10 shots per second, and a reload time of about 1.1 seconds. Sure, these stats pale in comparison with the Minigun, but the SMG isn’t a primary weapon, it’s meant as a sidearm, with it’s main purpose being finishing off enemies who you’ve already heavily damaged. I guess this is where some people draw issue with the SMG.
I see people all the time claiming that the SMG is only good for spychecking. I have yet to find this statement true. The reason why? The SMG doesn’t do enough damage. You’re much better off using the Kukri if you want to spycheck. The SMG’s real strength lies in it’s combo ability. Now that the Sniper/Spy update is out, I’ve seen an awful lot of snipers prancing around with the Huntsman and Jarate. An effective combo, if your opponent can’t dodge.
The Huntsman+SMG
A true power combo, the Huntsman and SMG can result in a particularly high KD if used properly. I find, that when I use the Huntsman, a good 50% of my kills come from finishing enemies off with the SMG. With the Huntsman, if you’re lucky, a fully charged bodyshot will kill whoever you’re fighting, but if not, you’re faced with a few decisions. Do you: A. Try for a second shot with the Huntsman (But what if they round a corner) B. Pull out the Kukri (Useless unless you’re at point blank) or C. Hit them with the SMG. I should hope you’d go with C. The reason being, even if you have to pump ten shots into them to bring them down, you’re going to get the kill. With Medics and Scouts, even a few shots at long range will kill them if they’re wounded. The tight spread and high rate of fire posessed by the SMG make it the perfect finisher, even if some people don’t see it that way.
The Sniper Rifle+SMG
With the regular rifle, the same tactics and usage apply, but because of the rifle’s dead accuracy, you may want to mix up SMG bursts with noscopes.
The Kukri+SMG
Miss that second, finishing blow? No worries. Keep your enemy at bay with the SMG.
Part Deux: The Scout Pistol
“The bat kills people quicker than pistols which is why I rate pistols useless.”
Lies. As any good Scout will tell you, the pistol is the second most important, and sometimes the most important weapon in a Scout’s arsenal. The reason? It all comes down to reload times.
The Scattergun, FaN, and You
For those who don’t know, the Scattergun, and it’s unlockable counterpart, the Force-A-Nature, have long reload times. In fact, some of the longest in the game. This is understandable, given the sheer power that these two weapons can inflict at close range, but when you run out of shells, the Scout’s 125 HP doesn’t always allow him much time to reload in a heated battle. The Scattergun takes a staggering 3.56 seconds to reload, and the FaN takes a fairly long 1.64 seconds. It is for these long reload times that the pistol exists. Be it a last ditch survival effort, or finishing off a weakened enemy, the Pistol gets the job done when you’re out of primary ammo.
The Distance Factor
The Scout’s primary weapons both specialize in close range (namely point blank) destruction, and are pretty ineffective when not lodged in an enemy’s face. The Pistol allows the Scout to have some distance capability, be it picking off a sentry outside its range, or picking off a fleeing enemy. When you take into account how big of a deal distance can become, the Pistol seems much less useless.
Conclusions: Is Anything Truly Useless?
In short, no. There is a use for every single weapon in TF2. No two weapons are the same, and no two weapons do things equally well. The diversity of equipment in TF2 is one of the things that makes it great. It makes the game fluid, unpredictable, and a lot more fun. Point is, every weapon fits in somewhere, whether it’s using Bonk to distact a sentry, planting a rocket at someone’s feet and sending them sailing, or blasting someone’s speed into oblivion. Actually, there might be one useless weapon: No matter how hard I try, I can’t seem to get any kills with the Sapper.
Stumble it!
n00bie51 responded on 12 Jun 2009 at 11:51 am #
You’re a noob who hasn’t played enough if you truly rate the Scout’s Pistol as useless. Simple as that.
I think players a little harsh on the SMG, it’s alright, but not useless.
Btw, there ARE weapons that are quite similar: Wrench, Fire Axe, Fists, Bone Saws, Bottles, Shovels, and Machetes are all identical in terms of swinging speeds and damage dealt.
n00bie51 responded on 12 Jun 2009 at 11:56 am #
Also, I strongly disagree that the Scattergun and the FAN are “pretty ineffective when not lodged in an enemy’s face.” Although the FAN suffers more with distance, you can still do considerable damage even if you’re not at close range.
I suppose I agree that there is no truly useless weapon, but I would argue that there are weapons that are made obsolete or surpassed by others, especially in competitive play.
Finally, the Sapper isn’t a weapon.
Rocks responded on 12 Jun 2009 at 12:16 pm #
SMG is useless because when you equip the sniper rifle you can simply noscope and there’s no need for the SMG. Now we have jarate, which is a much better alternative (razorback is more useless than the SMG though).
You’re right only about the huntsman/smg combo, however the huntsman sucks. It’s easily dodged and its a spam/luck weapon. So thats a bad combo as well.
Scouts pistol is perfect though.
Graven_Image responded on 12 Jun 2009 at 12:20 pm #
VALVe have transformed TF2 from a game into a fact of nature. The tone reminds me of a nature documentary, sort of.
Lawlingbawl responded on 12 Jun 2009 at 12:55 pm #
Bone saws have a higher crit rate than the other melee weapons.
I think the weapon that isn’t useless, but made obsolete, is the vanilla syringe gun. Crits with a weapon that don’t happen often considering how how few enemies a medic kills. The blutsauger replaces those rare crits (that you might not even hit anyone with) with health draining which is much more useful for the situations where a medic has to switch to his “primary”. Maybe they should just combine the two (blut with crits) and give us another medigun, like how the sniper has two unlockable secondary slots. Or just leave medic where it is, I guess that’s fine too.
Corodan responded on 12 Jun 2009 at 12:55 pm #
Man, people sure are dumb to think the Scout’s Pistol is weak.
It’s a truly magnificent handgun.
gelugon2105 responded on 12 Jun 2009 at 1:22 pm #
For crackshot Snipers, they are better off popping another shot as soon as possible, especially if their quarry is running away.
But true, the SMG is effective at finishing off wounded targets. But really, most team-player Snipers I know always equip the jar of urine, and not the SMG.
That’s not to say one should yell a Sniper’s ears off for not having equipped Jarate after burning to death in front of said Sniper.
And yes, the Scout’s pistol is often mistaken for being useless. On some maps, such as CP_Well and CTF_Well, it’s very effective at discouraging Snipers or Soldiers to stand somewhat still and take aim. The pistol is also more general-purpose than the energy drink.
“No matter how hard I try, I can’t seem to get any kills with the Sapper.”
You can’t get any kills with the Jarate either, despite it being an offensive weapon.
It really boils down to personal preferences. I know that I personally dislike the Sandvich, due to the fact that the eating animation requires the Heavy to stand perfectly still. With two additional weapons perfectly capable of killing stationary targets outright since the Sniper/Spy update – and also an item that makes it more likely that Spies are lurking at every secluded corner – this item’s usefulness has been reduced tremendously.
Alec responded on 12 Jun 2009 at 1:31 pm #
@noobie51, the Fists are clearly superior to the other melee weapons you listed, because you can perform a taunt-kill with the Fists.
Corodan responded on 12 Jun 2009 at 2:14 pm #
@Alec: As well as the Sandman and the Knife…
ChrisH responded on 12 Jun 2009 at 2:36 pm #
I personally use the pistol as a main Scout weapon.
‘Gets the most ammo when I run because it has such a low reserve and i can use it anywhere, while the FaN is just for opportunities and so is my Scattercannon
Baggie responded on 12 Jun 2009 at 2:37 pm #
Actually I find that I can’t play sniper without the SMG, I do get a good few kills with it most rounds.
@Alec
Funny thing is I spent 2 hours last night on a 24hour 2fort server using only my fists and a sanvich and maintained a positive kd.
Combyne responded on 12 Jun 2009 at 2:38 pm #
Did anyone consider the Razorback? I think it’s relatively useless, but it does serve one purpose.
Spies kill you in two shots instead of one. Hurray.
Baejung92 responded on 12 Jun 2009 at 3:17 pm #
@Gelugon: Are you sure you can’t kill with the jarate? I thought it did a small amount of damage upon hit… like five if I remember correctly.
Gee-Man responded on 12 Jun 2009 at 3:29 pm #
I personally find the SMG to not be completely useless, but definitely not the first weapon I’d bring with me into battle. I mean, you know your gun is a piece of crap when you rate a jar of piss higher than it. I will concede that the razorback is close to useless though. Maybe I just backstab really unaware Snipers, but I have yet to see a backstab fail because a Sniper intuitively reacted to my first failed stab and kill me.
Scattergunner responded on 12 Jun 2009 at 3:34 pm #
“No two weapons are the same” I c wat u did ther LLOoll
Combyne: I completely agree with u…
AlphaTM responded on 12 Jun 2009 at 3:49 pm #
If you can’t get any kills with the Sapper, you aren’t playing right. Noob.
Really, I don’t like the Ambassador that much. Maybe it’s my inability to aim anywhere beside the enemies chest (Playing TF2 does that to you) but I’m much better with the plain Revolver. Also, it makes Spies think they can get away with things like rushing into the battlefield with the Pyros and Soldiers, which isn’t a bad thing as long as they can aim better than me, but it means they aren’t, you know, SPYING. I like the C&D a lot though. It makes me feel like I’m playing a Sneaking game, but against living, breathing human players.
Alec responded on 12 Jun 2009 at 6:16 pm #
@Corodan
Ah, but noobie only said “Wrench, Fire Axe, Fists, Bone Saws, Bottles, Shovels, and Machetes”. No mentions of bats or knives!
noser responded on 12 Jun 2009 at 7:07 pm #
“Conclusions: Is Anything Truly Useless?”
Syringe Gun and Bonesaw when compared to unlockables
Ozku responded on 12 Jun 2009 at 7:09 pm #
I agree. No weapon is useless in this game. Before sniper update I used smg lot to kill wounded enemies (got like 50% of my kills with it, yes I suck at sniping). Ever since I really got into playing scout I have never let got of my pistol, it’s just too damn good weapon (in situation where Bonk! is needed, I’ll just go demo).
And fan being useless? Two shots from close range and 175hp classes are near death. Only thing I hate in fan is the kickback in air, it doesn’t fit in my playstyle.
Some people also like to call flare gun useless. Sure, your k/d ratio might suffer, but well placed flare shots can be very helpful for your team. Ever seen medic using uber way too early because he got hit by a flare and is near death?
Thing is, that people seem to rate their weapons based on purely numbers, when they really should be looking for different tactics those weapons allow them to do.
Secret Agent Clank! responded on 12 Jun 2009 at 7:19 pm #
@Baejung: Nope. No damage. Shame too, but eh.
I can think of two really underrated weapon: physics_props and world. =D
Zanpa responded on 12 Jun 2009 at 7:47 pm #
“Bone saws have a higher crit rate than the other melee weapons.”
Neither wrench nor bonesaw have a higher (BASE) crit rate than other weapons. 15%, that is.
But your crit chance goes up for the amount of damage you did in the last few seconds (including Sentry, so high crit rate for wrench).
And also the amount of healing !!!! So, if you just healed your entire team who was at 10% health, you have 25% crits with the bonesaw/ubersaw.
gelugon2105 responded on 12 Jun 2009 at 7:49 pm #
Baejung92, I am quite certain the Jarate does no appreciable damage. I have been hit by it directly before and there was no damage, only the messy, very unhealthy yellow hue.
Monchberter responded on 12 Jun 2009 at 11:19 pm #
Scout pistol could be buffed slightly, maybe by 3-4 hit points per shot. But i love it in combo with FoN, heavily damage anyone, feight a retreat, they retreat health, immediately switch to pistol and chase them down.
Brilliant
Oh, and heavy’s fists ARE very good as due to his 300HP you can go on a melee killing spree if you drop into an unaware group of enemies or back someone into a corner.
Mr. Noobinator responded on 13 Jun 2009 at 12:21 am #
noobie51: although i’m pretty sure you know what OP means, i just want to point out that he means that FaN and scattergun relies on close range to deliver maximum possible damage. as such, i usually refer this tactic as ‘peek-a-boo & run’ strategy
Rocks: noscope is better than SMG? please tell me who will win when you, with sniper rifle are backpedaling away from a flaming pyro? i can safely say that SMG will dish out more damage due to its rate of fire.
combyne: true, but i think its better if we say that Razorback intimidate spies, making them to think “if i stab that dude, i’m gonna be screwed.” that aside, would the left/right side backstab works though? i never tried it.
no weapons are useless. in the hands of right player, a combat medic with 3 unlocks (or 2, without the kritzkrieg) can top the team score without changing class. of course, i’d like to see a video of that happening, but its possible.
Zorgulon responded on 13 Jun 2009 at 12:42 am #
Truer words have rarely been said.
The SMG does exactly what it’s meant to do- it’s a great finishing off weapon (especially with the Huntsman, like you said), and something for the majority of players who aren’t crack noscope shots to use.
I’m not sure quite what the people who think it is useless want it to be- do they want Snipers to be able to run into battle and mow down the enemy with SMG-fire?
Mr. Noobinator responded on 13 Jun 2009 at 1:02 am #
i just read the steam forum club mentioned above, and i’m a bit curious about Dead Ringer’s playstyle. specifically, how do i get behind enemy line without cloaking?? i actually found its best use is to ambush as defense in a map (reds in CPs or PLs)
not calling it useless, but i just fail to see how to use it properly.
HelisPoe responded on 13 Jun 2009 at 1:30 am #
@Mr. Noobinator
I would go into depths to explain. But this video does it soooo much better:
http://www.wegame.com/watch/WiNGs_TF2_Dead_Ringer_and_Ambassador_Lesson/
Dead Ringer doesn’t need a buff. Maybe a slight 2 second increase but other than that it’s perfect.
I find myself using the DR and the standard cloak on and off depending on the map and situations. Which is exactly what Valve wanted.
Now the C+D.
I hates it.
Paper Shadow responded on 13 Jun 2009 at 2:03 am #
Jarate is Clubs weakness. Remember that when he challenges you to a One on One Sniper Battle where he constantly finishes you off with the SMG…
clubtheseals responded on 13 Jun 2009 at 2:15 am #
Damn. My weakness has been revealed.
taipoh responded on 13 Jun 2009 at 3:46 am #
people who say the pistol is useless obviously needs to play scout more.
Pyrit responded on 13 Jun 2009 at 4:13 am #
I’d like to congratulate everyone on missing that the Sapper comment was a joke.
The pistol can do considerably more damage at further distances than the scattergun or FaN. If you’re able to fire shots off quickly, you can easily kill opponents before they run to get health.
I think the problem most players have with the SMG is that up against close ranges it won’t kill effectively. That’s the point, though. Snipers shouldn’t be able to kill a Pyro head on. The Sniper has to keep his distance, because close range combat is meant to be his weakness.
superking208 responded on 13 Jun 2009 at 4:26 am #
What? People think the Scout’s pistol is useless?
Who?!
Lemme at ‘em!
Coming Second responded on 13 Jun 2009 at 4:36 am #
Huh, never thought to use the Huntsman in conjunction with the SMG. You may be right, though. A number of times I’ve stuck an arrow in a Scout, leaving him with about 15 health, but he’s still killed me because I had nothing to finish him off with. Might give that combo a try now!
n00bie51 responded on 13 Jun 2009 at 6:15 am #
Yeah, but it wasn’t amusing to me because… it still isn’t a weapon!
Zanpa, thanks for mentioning that the Bone Saw and Wrench have the same base chance for Critting as other weapons.
And Alec, you’re right about the kill taunt, but what I said is still correct; they all deal the same amount of damage and swing at the same speed. I think you were joking, but of course kill taunts aren’t practical enough to be factored in.
Alec responded on 13 Jun 2009 at 7:20 am #
@noobie51
Clearly, you’ve never taunt-killed a charged medic before. =o
mynameisbob responded on 13 Jun 2009 at 3:22 pm #
Personally, I think that the Fire Axe, bottle and Co. are nowhere near useless. (in the right hands)
Don Newman.
Depending on the enemy (and situation), I will either use the bat or pistol as scout. Something about getting about getting kills with that bat always makes me smile.
Spydra responded on 13 Jun 2009 at 8:11 pm #
@noobie51 I can’t agree that those weapons are identical in any ways except damage. Doesn’t really make sense to me. This would mean that going melee only one on one with pretty much any class as Sniper would leave you at a disadvantage, almost always a severe one. In most cases, this seems true, like Heavy vs Sniper, Soldier vs. Sniper, and Medic vs. Sniper (this case particularly, since the medic is faster, has more hp and regens) BUT I have found that when you use the right tactics you can take any class one on one with any class. The scout can beat anyone with his bat, the heavy with his fists, the medic with his saw, and I suppose even the sniper with his kukri (although, sniper being my least played class, I don’t really see it happening).
Also, I swear that the Wrench draws faster than any other melee weapon.
Spydra responded on 13 Jun 2009 at 8:16 pm #
Oh and everyone saying this or that weapon is completely useless (aside from the syringe gun, particularly on no crit servers. I mean what the hell) are just too damn stupid.
The pistol flat out beats the scout’s primarys at mid range, the SMG destroys the non-scoped rifle (4 shots from your 25 shot clip do as much as a no scope shot, and take a lot less time to fire. Simple as that)
n00bie51 responded on 13 Jun 2009 at 11:17 pm #
Spydra, the melee weapons I mentioned are identical in damage dealt and swinging speed. The only difference between them, like you mentioned, is the movement speed and the HP of the class wielding them.
ExAstris responded on 14 Jun 2009 at 1:09 am #
The scout’s pistol is really quite useful; the reason nobody ever gets kills with it IMO is because you then run up and kill with the scattergun or FaN instead. Likewise for the engie’s pistol; most kills are with the shotgun for that extra powerful blast (In fact, I’ve found the engie’s shotgun to be quite useful when helping out while my sentry protects the intel elsewhere).
On sniper items, I really shouldn’t comment, being as it is that I have about an hour of total playtime as Sniper, but I never had a problem with the SMG. Snipers who rely on noscope when being attacked by a spy or pyro or scout can kiss their life goodbye.
IceCKryss responded on 14 Jun 2009 at 3:08 am #
Treat the SMG as a rapid-fire pistol and you’ll be fine. I find that emptying the gun into a Spy’s body saves me a lot more than the Kukri, Huntsman, or Sniper Rifle do. That SMG is a lifesaver, but only as a last resort. I find it especially funny when, as a Spy, I engage a Sniper to find he switches from his primary to his Kukri. Swinging that slab of metal around like he’s going to hit something, I just back up and shoot. Remember the phrase ‘Never bring a knife to a gunfight”? It applies. The SMG is a lifering in the sea of close combat. It can save you, stop treating it like garbage.
3 responded on 14 Jun 2009 at 9:07 am #
The pistol’s a decent sniping weapon. Took down many an engie along with their sentries.
Also, I prefer bathing the enemy with piss and shooting a mid-charged arrow before he makes a getaway.
IceCKryss: The assumption behind swinging around the kukri like a headless chicken is that you’ll be the upstanding gentleman who will accept the melee duel. Well, if you prefer using the pistol, more power to ya.
Spydra responded on 14 Jun 2009 at 10:05 am #
@3
You could assume its a melee challenge all you want, be my guest and put yourself at a disadvantage. My rule is, if any class other than sniper or medic pulls out their melee, I’ll go for it. Those two just do it in hopes that you will pull out yours and give them a chance to survive.
IE: A. Medic is healing a soldier and you kill that soldier, then go for the medic, he pulls out the bonesaw, why should you bother meleeing him? He is only pulling that out because he knows his syringe gun is worthless.
B. Sniper is taking shots at you from the battlements and missing because of your dodging efforts, you get over to confront him and he pulls out his kukri. Why shouldn’t you just take some shots at him and see how his dodging efforts fair?
Also, to call out a melee duel, you never swing the melee weapon, or at least if you do, you don’t advance on your target. Running at some one and swinging wildly only encourages them to backpedal and shoot you in the face.
FlyingHat responded on 14 Jun 2009 at 11:24 am #
What kind of shitting crappy inane scout neglects his pistol?
3 responded on 14 Jun 2009 at 6:26 pm #
Spydra: You’re totally right to say that, but I’m talking about sniper vs. spy situations. If you, as a spy, somehow got face-to-face with a sniper, the chances are that you were partly at fault. It just irritates me when I bump into a spy who knifes me in the face for a chance at facestab, only to back away and gun me down with his Ambassador by the time I pull out my kukri… ;(
Secret Agent Clank! responded on 15 Jun 2009 at 12:14 am #
Fun fact:
1) Get autopistol script
2) Use autopistol script
3) Get all shots in with autopistol script at close-medium range
4) Pistol does more damage than scattergun in same amount of time
5) ???
6) Jarate
?????? responded on 04 Nov 2009 at 11:24 pm #
??????? ???????. ????? ????? ?????
Nik responded on 20 Feb 2010 at 4:10 pm #
Jarate?