The case for the Sandman
So, well done guys. I watch from the outside as you rant on and on about how the Scout’s new bat is overpowered, until Valve had no choice but to stick their fingers in their ears to drown out the noise, and alter it so it’s not as awesome anymore. I applaud your skills in whining, and watch you in admiration as you find the next thing to complain about. Why am I sounding so bitter about all of this? Because I don’t think the Sandman was as big a game-breaker as everyone made it out to be, and unlike those people, I have some reasoning to back this up. Sure, I accept I’m on the 360 and therefore have no concrete proof or pent up frustration about being hit by the thing over and over, but hear me out. It’s time for the defence to state their case…
“I get hit by it all the time!”
Fact – Every class update makes it so 90% of the Team Fortress 2 player population play that class. Fact – That means that the new unlocks will be used by those players. Fact – That means you will be killed by these unlocks. A lot.
To put it another way, I accept that you’re going to be bonk’d a lot, but that’s only because there’s six Scouts running around all trying to do the same thing…. Give it a few weeks and it’s inevitable that it’ll be back down to one or two Scouts a team, and baseballs won’t be flying around with reckless abandon anymore. Indeed, that one Scout may miss or screw up, giving you a good choice to lay the smackdown as he fails in his attempts to kill you. In short, you won’t get hit as much. Happy now?
“It’s hard to avoid, especially at corners!”
It’s odd to me that people are getting upset that when the ball flies at them, they can’t act like they’re in the Matrix and avoid it. They think it should travel through the air as if it was travelling through treacle, giving them ample time to laugh at the apparent n00b Scout as they walk out of the way. Well, let me say this – Get over it! Think of the ball as a special kind of bullet, and then think how stupid it would be if everyone could avoid bullets without having to chug down some Bonk Cola first. If you want to actually avoid it, it should be a matter of pre-empting the move – See a Scout with a bat up ahead? Pretty good bet that he’s going to try and get you with it. Act accordingly!
In the event your idiocy makes it so you screw up, or you’ve been hit when you turn a corner, I ask you this – Where’s your team? This is a team game, after all, and the clue to that is in the name. If you’re being Rambo and rushing off ahead, don’t moan when you get caught out… A good team would blow the Scout to tiny bits before he could even switch weapons to attack properly, and let’s not forget that ball isn’t going to hit everyone all at once. If you’re in a situation where your team would be a hindrance, such as playing the Spy, you could say that it becomes unfair then – But not really. You see, if you’re hit then, you’ve been outsmarted. Your flank has failed, your sapping skills compromised. The chances are you’d be dead after being revealed even without being hit by the ball, and this is the Scout’s reward for outsmarting you and actually getting hit shot on target – Another tricky factor. After all, you can’t kill them every time, and the steps the Scout has to do means their reward is rightfully earned…
“It’s stupid because it can stop Ubers!”
Well, you see, a tiny baseball would logically stop an invincible bullet-spitting machine of de… Actually, yeah, this bit is pretty stupid.
“The force-a-nature cancels out the fact you have no double jump!”
IT DOESN’T. Really, have you even shot the damn thing? Seen it in action? Anything? The upward momentum it gives the Scout is tiny and incomparable to the double jump, meaning that many areas remain unreachable. It’s also very hard to use effectively, and again is incomparable to just pressing the spacebar twice in a row. You see, effective use of the upthrust that the force-a-nature gives you actually arises when the Sandman is not equipped – It allows Scouts to travel to brand new height, hide in new little corners, and generally give the bad guys hell as a result. You won’t be doing stuff like this with the Sandman, put it that way.
Oh, and this just made my brain hurt, so I’m ignoring it because I can. HA.
“I don’t like being stunned!”
I was browsing the Steam Forums a few days ago, looking for arguments I could counter with my dazzling wit and charming charisma, and I was amazed how many times people were using this as a legitimate reason to nerf the Sandman. Sure, I accept that the game is meant to be fun. Sure, I accept I’d get annoyed myself if I lost control due to a well-placed shot by a baseball. Yet that’s not a reason to actually remove it, because then I’d petition to remove the afterburn from the flamethrower, because I hate dying to it. Or crit rockets because it’s not fun that it’s one well-placed rocket by a skilful soldier that killed me. Or every other gun except the one I’m using, because I don’t like people constantly shooting me. This sounding stupid to you? Yes? Good. You get the point.
So, the defence rests – The Sandman wasn’t as stupid as some of you might have made it out to be. Now, if you excuse me, I’m going to be running for the nearest nuclear bunker, because I get the feeling the comments to this are not going to be entirely sympathetic…
supremesonic on March 18th 2009 in rants, scout, tactics, team fortress 2
Stumble it!
supremesonic responded on 18 Mar 2009 at 11:08 am #
And really, before you start, I know I can’t talk. The article says I’m on the Xbox 360, I’m an idiot, and so on. So take this with a pinch of salt, if you will… I’m only really publishing it to see how many people I can get to hate me. =D
Monchberter responded on 18 Mar 2009 at 9:10 pm #
Look, the thing that most people are hacked off about is the removal of control that the stun brings.
With all the other examples you gave of frustrating deaths, you can appreciate them as you can always say to yourself “hmm, if only i’d have done something and i ‘may’ have lived…”
Taking control away from the player is incredibly jarring and despite the skill taken to get a headshot, still feels incredibly cheap as you can’t respond or try to get away. This is frustrating as the whole point people play FPS’s is to have that distinct feeling of control in a game, to freeze you AND to pull back into third person just reminds you that the game is playing you and you not the game. Hence not fun.
I wouldn’t like to see the stun go, just modified. I think it would still be effective if it worked something like the Boomer vomit attack in L4D. Something like this:
On getting hit by the ball your screen is affected, your view is skewed or blurred and you lose your ability to ID other players, at the same time, your weapons are disabled (to stop spam defending or soldiers and demos to rocket and stick jump away) BUT you still have the ability to move say at 75% speed, even if it is somewhat tricky given the impaired vision. This would give you a chance to at least feel like you’re in control of your fate and would not be as jarring as being forced into third person and completely frozen. And any decent scout would be able to come up and batter you senseless.
Kollega responded on 18 Mar 2009 at 9:18 pm #
Yes,i don’t like being stunned. Mainly because i can’t do fucking ANYTHING as Scout beats me (for example,Heavy who had his minigun spun-up) to death. Do bullets stun you? I think not. And i can’t just be with my team all the damn time,since i have to get to the front lines,after all! Teleporter abscence is, however, another story…
Uber-stun is RIDICULOUS. As a Medic,you have to work towards uber,stay alive,etc. Every second out of this ten can be crucial for winning. When Scout comes along,and ruins 3-5 out of this precious seconds,disorienting and basically disrupting uber.
Valve wanted to make Scout a bit more attractive to play,but Sandman and Bonk!,fine counters to Heavy and Engineer,Scout’s main counter-classes,was simply too drastic. Scout is actually used not to capture points/intel,but to annoy other team,and unlocks made him OVERLY ANNOYING. Overall, stun mechanic is just “unnecesary,obnoxious,cliched,and some other mean words!”.
And since you play on Xbox 360,then…
http://googleforidiots.com/readme.swf
Don’t even ask me.
n00bie51 responded on 18 Mar 2009 at 9:30 pm #
supremesonic, your acknowledgment of the absurdity of not knowing wtf you’re talking about DOES NOT excuse you from the fact you don’t know wtf you’re talking about. Okay, that’s a bit harsh, but I strongly disagree with your argument because it’s flawed.
n00bie51 responded on 18 Mar 2009 at 9:33 pm #
I could go into great detail and make an effective rebuttal in the form of a giant essay, but I’ll let other people do that. Unless they don’t say it quickly enough.
NightStriker responded on 18 Mar 2009 at 9:41 pm #
Only problem I have with sand man is the whole ‘making ubers useless’ thing. I personally think that they shouldn’t have nerfed it in any other way.
Ryan Williams responded on 18 Mar 2009 at 9:51 pm #
I think the stun is fine since they patched it. Now that Scout numbers have dropped, I rarely actually get hit by one. Even if a Scout does see me, some clever unpredictable strafing usually allows you to avoid the ball.
Mickyan responded on 18 Mar 2009 at 10:16 pm #
And that’s how it was supposed to be in the first place, ryan.
Ever though about getting used to counter weapons?Most of the stuns i get are the idiots that don’t even try to dodge the ball, you see a scout with his sandman out charging at you, you’re either a dumbass and stand still shooting at him or you start strafing. I never get hit by a sandman when i’m heavy as i actually -try- to dodge it. And i’m successfull 90% of the times. And it’s not because i’m superman.
And stunning ubers.. i can understand that it might be a bit over powered but again, the ubercharge is overpowered itself. Yeah, remember the stun? you can’t do nothing to counter it? YOU CAN’T DO ANYTHING TO COUNTER THE UBER ASWELL. So if you whine about the stun time you whine about the uber aswell. Anyway, if you think that stunning an uber (ubercharge protect from DAMAGE, nothing else), what do you think about only taking half damage when you’re stunned? Isn’t that a bit, you know, dumb? half damage, do you have any idea of how much that is? that means a sniper will need at least 2 headshots (one fully charged) to kill a not-overhealed heavy.
GG, very balanced
Phase responded on 18 Mar 2009 at 10:36 pm #
The thing is, you aren’t SUPPOSED to counter the Uber. The Uber is supposed to be a stalemate breaker, a tactic that rewards teamwork and coordination with others. If the Uber doesn’t work because the other team sacrifices themselves to sve their sentries, fine. If the Uber doesn’t work because the Medic decided to Uber a Sniper, fine, incompetence is a part of life. If the Uber doesn’t work because a single, incredibly fragile class hides behind a corner and stops the unstoppable force, that’s OP. I like the reduction of damage while stunned, they didn’t even have to change the range, but if Scouts can stop Ubers, that’s just stupid and overpowered.
Real.Wolf responded on 18 Mar 2009 at 10:48 pm #
@Mickyan The urbercharge can be countered by an airblast, another uber, and often times by a good engy nest.
Yes, this is TEAM fortress 2, and the best counter for a stun is for your team to get between you and the scout. But what are the chances of that regularly happening in pub servers?
Before the nerf, a scout was able to snipe me with the ball while I was hurrying to the front. If he missed, he ran away, if he hit, he would run up and unload his FoN into me point blank. Dead 80% of the time. Before, GOOD scout could still kill soldiers, but it required a lot of skill. Now all they need is one good/lucky shot and they can take on any class.
b00n responded on 18 Mar 2009 at 10:54 pm #
sandman is still op
b00n responded on 18 Mar 2009 at 11:01 pm #
If a pyro is trying to push you away, you can shoot him.
If there are some well placed sentries, you can still go in there and take something out.
And if the enemy counters an uber with an uber … well that’s a fair trade.
But if the baseball hits you, you’re fucked.
Azul responded on 18 Mar 2009 at 11:54 pm #
The funny thing about the sandman is that it generally produces a pretty useless class. The scout with the sandman loses the one thing that really makes the scout unique… without the double jump he is basically the same as any shotgun wielding class but faster. He lacks the mobility to be really useful. Also a sandman scout tends to hang back more and just take potshots with his ball. Look, if you really want to be the ultimate defense then switch classes to an engineer or to a pyro with airblast. I know you are enjoying frustrating people by stunning them then running up and batting them… except for the fact that you usually kill the stunned player and are then immediately gibbed by the entire team standing behind him.
As for the FaN. It’s ok and definitely has its place, but you can’t equate it to the same as a double jump. Having to waste one of your two bullets in order to change your direction in the air is not all that beneficial. As a normal scout you can just double jump around to dodge and enemy while firing shot after shot into them. I do find it to work amazingly well against pyros and spies though. It’s hilarious to watch a spy trying time and time again to get back to the gun he was sapping, constantly being blown back.
Flail responded on 18 Mar 2009 at 11:55 pm #
“Think of the ball as a special kind of bullet”
… that comes from a MELEE weapon. There is one part of the problem.
The other part of the problem is that getting hit from a range with this melee weapon (that makes sense) and completely losing control of your character is annoying enough to me to make the game less fun. I have a feeling that a whole lot of other people feel the same way. If something makes the game less fun, it isn’t a good unlockable.
My suggestion? It would have to be playtested, balanced, etc, etc, etc. I would like to see the new bat still give double jump, maybe slow the scout down by 5%-ish, have no stupid ball, and stun people you hit with it. Is it the best suggestion, probably not, but people seem to ask for one when you hate on the sandman, so there!
Grimjack responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 12:27 am #
While all these problems can be debated till the cows come home, my real problem with the sandman is this:
It affects my suspension of disbelief.
I am a pyro walking down the bridge on 2fort. I am a short-range fighter so the whole time I am walking down the bridge I will be vulnerable to snipers, rockets and bullets. In other words I am facing serious weaponry.
I shoot my flare at the opposing sniper and through skill (or luck) i light him up momentarily annoying him as he has to go back to spawn to out out the minor fire. Compared to the other weapons, my flare gun is a piddly little thing. Sure I have finished off people with it and even killed guys who were stupid enough to stand there while I lit them up three times but overall its main use is to buy me time to cross that bridge.
Next thing I know I am in the middle of the bridge stunned. Laid low by a baseball?? A baseball is a more effective weapon then a flare gun???
Ladykiller responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 12:45 am #
My #1 complaint is the fact that it’s a melee weapon, and yet has ungodly range. If the scout had to get up close and actually hit me with the bat to stun me, fine – fair trade, it’d be my own fault for letting him get up close.
And, as others have pointed out, every other class can be countered when they try to use their special tricks against you, such as the airblast or flare gun. Once the scout sneaks up on you (an easy task, given his tiny hitbox and super speed, which makes flanking no problem), it’s game over.
BJJ responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 12:50 am #
He’s right, and you know it.
There’s one Scout with a Sandman, and he’s hitting the occasional ball around.
You’ll only get killed by it if you’re away from your team, dicking around in the open. Which you should NEVER be doing.
And QUIT WHINING ABOUT REMOVAL OF CONTROL AND INEVITABLE DEATH.
Valve never promised you nothing would stun you.
I play Engineer. When I see a uber demo coming at my sentry, what the hell am I supposed to do? I will try to defend it but if he’s at least competent I am royally screwed. Do I scream and cry about it?
No, I’m back in the next respawn wave putting up another one. Because rather than whine insistently, I prefer to enjoy the game.
Thorax responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 1:09 am #
I don’t mind the stun. As has been mentioned already, once the newness of the update wears off, it’ll be back to 1 or 2 scouts per team, and there won’t be as many baseballs flying around. I agree with the point of the baseball being able to stun an uber just ain’t right, however. If an uber pair is able to shrug off bullets and rockets like they’re ping pong balls but being able to be stunned by a baseball just seems silly by comparison. If the stun had to stay against an uber, though, the stun time should be dropped to a second or 2. FYI, I haven’t played since they nerfed the sandman yet.
Ninja Kow responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 1:20 am #
While all of your arguments are valid, I’d have toss out an example (and forgive me if you don’t know Arena mode, but you already seem well-informed) that unlike being hit in the face with a stray rocket or getting burninated or getting hit with a highly charged sniper shot, getting hit with a baseball means you are done for. There is no hope for you, those scouts (and anybody else nearby) will hear that sound and leap on you like a tiger on its prey.
I particularly like your point about the number of scouts going down, as it seems to be happening as we speak.
kanodin responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 1:20 am #
The simple problem I had with the sandman is not any of these reasons, but simply if you were hit by it once you were basically dead. Obviously there were exceptions, but most of the time you simply cannot expect your team to guard you on a pub game, that’s just how it is. It then becomes a 1v1 match where you have no chance as you have no control. Your own argument was that I should not expect to constantly dodge baseballs, so why is failure to do so an almost insta-death?
I actually feel they went a bit too far in the nerfing though, 50% less damage would have been sufficient without the decrease in stun time, but I’m happy with it now and I’m someone who regularly plays scout.
hain responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 1:23 am #
I don’t like the idea of stunned ubers personally, but it really is not against the idea of teamwork, an ubercharge is not really lots of teamwork, just a medic and well, someone else. Now you probably have to go on ubercharging with at least one back up uberee tagging along, which is a challenge.
And I agree with BJJ. As an engie, that moment when you see stickies falling around your feet, most of the time you abandon ship and try to get away with your life, everything you built and upgraded is destroyed. Is it fair? No, it’s not, but it’s part of the game.
KoreRat responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 1:25 am #
I got bonk’d the other night while capping the point. My teammate distracted the scout, so even though I was stuned I still got the cap and we won the round. So HA to the Sandman for that one!
Zorgulon responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 1:36 am #
When the Sandman first came out, it was overpowered because it made it trivial for a fairly unskilled Scout to take out a Heavy (or pretty well any other class) 1v1.
Now they’ve updated it, this is not the case, and while still annoying, the loss of double-jump and the fact that the Sandman-Scattergun combo is no longer a gimme means it is no longer overpowered.
In time, we wil get used to and accept it, if we like it or not.
Stunning Ubers still needs to go.
Can we please now move on?
Pin0 responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 2:04 am #
I acltually do play it on pc and completely agree with basically all the things you said… people whine too much period
Tea. Earl Grey. Hot. responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 2:14 am #
Sonic, I, for one, agree with just about everything you said.
Polterjunge responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 2:27 am #
I agree too. If the enemy team deploys an uber, it’s still not sure that a scout with a sandman is around to stun them. And if your team has a Scout (especially RED on defense), it’s not a very useful class. Take Dustbowl, CP 1.2. You can’t do much as a Scout since BLU’s going to build forward bases and so on. But that’s maybe cause I suck as a Scout…
Nonomu198 responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 2:43 am #
I agree with n00bie51. This “contribution” is irrelevent, and as you, supremesonic, said yourself, is only here to make people angry. I really don’t have anything to say to you, but I do have a general bit of information that might be worth of sharing with the comment-readers who think the Sandman is and was OK.
I play a lot of arena, a lot. I play arena well. I have a lot of experience playing before and after the Scout update… and I gotta say, the damn baseball still destroys you in a 1v1 if the Scout has some teamwork. Sounds confusing? It’s not really. A Scout can still hit you with his baseball from close-medium range (or close to point blank), get you stunned for a while, and then his friends see you and kaboom. You are dead and the Scout picks up his baseball. You can’t do anything about it, really. Even if you see him coming, unless you are a Scout, you probably will be hit. It started as a simple 1v1 that you could have won, but with minimun brain from the Scout’s teammates you have died. If the Scout didn’t have the Sandman, you could have just killed him, and you un-stunned would have not alerted his teammates to hunt you down. It is not as bad as before, but I don’t think any nerfs can help.
The weapon is flawed. Stuns take away your control, which is your only defense, your only offense, your only power, and the only fun you get in the game (unless you only plya for the chat. If so, this is not the game for you. Maybe you should quit gaming and chat on irc or something.). Plus, the weapon takes one ability (double-jump) and replaces it with one super effective projectile. So strong, in fact, that it is unbalanced and destroys other classes. Just think, what if the Sniper had an altrnative primary weapon, only 12 shots, takes away 20% of the speed, but each was twice as strong as the current ones? It would have been pretty unbalanced, as I hope you can see.
Plus, taking the double-jump is a bad idea. If the Sandman is so powerful that it takes a basic element from the Scout to balance it up, isn’t it TOO powerful? What were Valve thinking?
Jager responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 2:43 am #
Thank you for posting this! Finally some reasonable thought to all the complaining!
Dude responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 3:01 am #
I agree for the most part, since now that scouts are back to 1 or 2 players per team (most of the time) it’s not as annoying as it used to be.
However, the uber issue is still an issue. All of the other counters mentioned (engies, other ubers, airblast) can not only be countered but also take some amount of EFFORT to pull off. Engies spend time building up their nest(s), medics likewise with their ubers, and the pyro with his airblast is typically sacrificing himself for the team to defend. The uber-stunning scout sacrifices nothing and puts no significant effort into his contribution, which, you know, is not necessarily a reason to get rid of this feature, but I certainly find it a bit annoying.
Also: that pic at the end of the article == win.
Himmelstoss responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 3:29 am #
It was a pretty bad weapon, but I think the new nerf balanced it out. It’s not any harder to aim the Sandman than the flare gun, but the increased minimum stun range was a good nerf. Still, don’t expect CEVO to unban it anytime soon.
However, I’m still really pissed about uber countering. Especially the fact that the heavy uber which despite its slooooow speed used to be the most destructive force in the game, has now become invalidated by a single friggin baseball. Because the heavy moves so slowly, it’s too easy to hit him when ubered. Not cool stuff.
And supremesonic, if you have no idea what the hell you’re talking about, please don’t say it. Thank you so much for trying to alter the mechanics of a game (TF2, PC version) that you _don’t even play_.
zrakt responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 3:44 am #
i bet you think that 225hp-pyro was balanced as well
GeneralGoose responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 3:53 am #
I still hate the Sandman, but the new nerf means I hate it somewhat less.
Still think it’s fundamentally flawed (stunning people giving them no chance of fighting back, and melee weapons shouldn’t have ranged attacks.)
dekichan responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 3:55 am #
The BB’s +50 hp, while OP, allowed many non-pyro players to get used to the idea of getting in close. Even when removed, the pyro is now still viable. Despite it causing complaints, it was successful in making the class more popular.
The medic and Heavy did not have a new weapon that made everyone complain OP. But the classes are not really more popular.
Theory, Valve would rather err on the side of OP to avoid dampening the lasting affect on class popularity. We’ll see if the next update has another new weapon that lays waste to everything it touches, just to be scaled back within a couple of weeks.
Secret Agent Clank! responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 4:04 am #
I won’t talk about the actual Sandman, but what n00bie said. The fact that you know that you’re talking about something you have zero experience with doesn’t change a thing, and in fact makes you look like a for talking in such a manner as if you do (and I quote thus regarding the FaN: “Really, have you even shot the damn thing? Seen it in action? Anything?”).
In that same fashion, the fact that you know and mention that you expect negative comments doesn’t mean we’ll give you nothing but praise for your amaaaazing powers of foresight.
Extra note: Whining about people whining hardly makes you any better, I’d like to add.
(Sorry, guess I got a bit worked up.)
Secret Agent Clank! responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 4:07 am #
Didn’t refresh page before posting (sorry), but I think dekichan’s got a good HYPOTHESIS.
Sorry to be a nazi XD, but “theories” have to be proven consistently and accepted by the scientific community before they’re technically theories. Otherwise, they’re just “hypotheses”.
I do still think you’re on to something, though.
dekichan responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 4:14 am #
oops, wrong word. thanks!
harry responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 4:30 am #
-1
Kind of sad to see this great blog publish articles just for the sake of controversy..
Grabnar responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 4:54 am #
I agree with this blog post.
I hate the fact that the sandman got nerfed, and i resent everyone who cried out for the nerf.
RIP useful scouts.
Saurous responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 4:55 am #
Oh, come on, man. We were on a roll! 8 or so articles without a Sandman argument. Oh, well.
Also, as a few have said before me, acknowledging the fact that you will get a bunch of negative feedback doesn’t make you funny or intelligent. It just makes you a troll.
So, yeah. What Clank said, I guess.
riDDi responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 5:34 am #
It does show that OP has no actual experience with the sandman.
Also, that “TEAM Fortress”-argument is getting old and is completely invalid for other scouts. How am I supposed to use my class’ abilities to the fullest if I have to stay with the slow bunch, just to keep myself from dieing to a noob-scout who can’t even hit me right while I’m stunned.
You hear me? I got stunned so often by players who couldn’t even HIT AN IMMOBILE TARGET that I entirely gave up on playing the scout.
IMO, the situation is completely the opposite:
It was too hard for noobs to achieve anything as scout. So Valve gave them an effort-removal tool, aka the sandman, so they could get at least one kill per life.
Because noob-scouts don’t use double-jumping for what it’s actually made for – dodgeing attacks and overcoming obstacles – removing it is a none-issue for them anyway. It doesn’t hurt them at all, but gives them the ability to effortlessly disturb or even kill other players.
Valve has seen this and made the sandman into what it was supposed to be: a supportive weapon.
You can still stun engies who mindlessly whack away at their sentry. You can still stun heavies and ubers to help out your team.
But you cannot randomly stun people and expect to get free kills anymore. You actually have to think before stunning, because stunning can seriously hinder your team’s efforts at killing a player.
BathrobeAssassin responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 6:10 am #
Goddamn, supremesonic is my new favorite author here.
And the rest of you are full of shit.
Doc ock rokc responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 6:14 am #
I’m a Pro sandman scout. The weapon was fine if the game wasn’t swarming with scouts.
hell after one of my favorite servers got it every one except the pros played scout. in 2 days they stoped playing scout and only the pros and some guys that now liked the scout played scout. which means that only 2 scouts where on a team at a time. 3 if it was a PL and then some of them didn’t use sandman for they would get up to rocket jump areas to take out unsuspecting demos and soldiers with low health.
the sandman scouts worked with the natasha heavys and snipers to wipe out the noob scouts that every so often showed up and just used the sandman as his primary.
when the nerf came around the pairs broke up and the scout fell into the “blind rush to the point” class again
thats why i was thought up a idea for Fixing the weapon so that the whiners have a chance to dodge it but the skilled scouts can still surprise you and stun you. My idea is Ducking to dodge the ball and it can be found here
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=822560
n00bie51 responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 6:20 am #
dekichan, you stated a valid point about how obnoxiously over powered weapons made a class more popular. That is an interesting hypothesis, but I already know the conclusion: I don’t give a shit how popular it makes the new class if it’s going to negatively affect the gameplay.
In response to those who claim that the ÜberCharge has no counter, should have a counter, etc., this is what I say:
1. The ÜberCharge, although powerful and designed to break deadlocks as Phase mentioned and making it near impossible to keep areas completely secure, has counters. Real.Wolf already said you can counter with the air blast or another ÜberCharge, and they don’t guarantee victory anyway.
2. Mickyan and BJJ, I find flaw in your logic and strongly disagree with your arguments. The reason nobody complains about the ÜberCharge is due to several reasons: It takes a considerable amount of time for the Medic to build it up and coordination between the two players is important. Another significant reason is the fact that the ÜberCharge mechanic has been around since Team Fortress 2 was released and it’s considered acceptable or imbalanced. Sentry Guns have been demolished by ÜberCharges since people learned how to use them. However, the Sandman significantly changes what was already established and can render the ÜberCharge significantly ineffective.
I’m glad that there’s been a nerf, but being able to stun the ÜberCharged is still too significant. Yes, it’s good that there will be less Scouts running rampant and two-piecing everybody with the Sandman, but the problem is still there.
Even IF I agreed that the Sandman was balanced, using the Sandman to stun an opponent and deal damage on a stationary target does not take as much skill as learning how to maneuver, flank, and aim precisely simultaneously.
Teridax responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 6:26 am #
SupremeSonic, you are my god.
Right now the only main argument for the Sman haters is the “no fun stun” (as well as being able to stun ubers, but I find that argument’s jutified). Note that thanks to the new patch, a stun can actually SAVE you from death. Imagine being endowed with super-resistance to damage while you’re getting pummelled by an angry Demoman, just before your team comes to save the day. You could even be tempted to thank the Scout for his unwilling help. unless you get headshotted or backstabbed, in which case tough luck.
Teridax responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 6:31 am #
BTW Noobie51, are you saying that overpowered mechanics can be accepted ust on the grounds that they’ve been there for a long time? I quote you:
“Another significant reason is the fact that the ÜberCharge mechanic has been around since Team Fortress 2 was released…”
The above quote is not out of context. Read it if you wanna check.
In this case, simply wait for the Sandman to settle down and get absorbed by the community, and no one will dislike it, leading to less whining.
This is not my real name responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 6:33 am #
Well, l would be satisfied if they just removed the uber-block effect..
Actually, a more fair nerf would be to receive 50% less damage only from the scout who fired the ball…
Wazzle responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 6:33 am #
You know what I hate the most in TF2? Being killed, because it takes away control for a whole 10 seconds. It’s the most stupid thing ever, and it should be nerfed. You shouldn’t actually be allowed to die.
I’d just like to say that most of you probably saw the title, clicked on comments and ranted, as opposed to actually reading the article. He makes all valid points. You should have team members around to save you when stunned, medics should have other people to latch onto once they’ve popped the uber, the stun at close range only lasts a second or so and is weak, so you won’t die, it’s difficult to get hit unless you’re stupid…
Bottom line is, most of you complaining about the Sandman must suck at the game. It’s a great weapon which, frankly, didn’t need to be nerfed.
Wazzle responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 6:35 am #
Oh, yeah, I don’t think I said that I love you, Supremesonic.
A shrubbery! responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 6:39 am #
So many idiots. -_- so many of them. With never-closing mouths. It’s a goddamn bat. It stuns people. It’s not fun being stunned. Live with it. If you can’t, go cut yourself instead of complaining.
Pyrit responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 6:41 am #
Although it’s not a bad article, I dunno how you could know some of the stuff in this without having tried the stuff firsthand. Like the FaN’s knockback jump. Yes, it isn’t as effective as an ordinary double jump, but not because you can’t get as high. I’ve managed to do the exact same things with the FaN jump as I can with the double jump, it’s just a bit trickier and you can’t do it as frequently as a double jump to the same effect.
n00bie51 responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 6:42 am #
Teridax, no, I am not saying “that overpowered mechanics can be accepted ust [sic] on the grounds they’ve been there for a long time.” I said “ANOTHER” significant reason is the fact that the ÜberCharge mechanic has been around since TF2 was released. If that doesn’t help, then I DID mean it in the context with the rest of my statement.
For example, the Soldier’s ammo count was excessive and giving him damage reduction from his own rockets at close range made him a powerful close range class, but I consider it a positive change that Valve decided to reduce the number of rockets and remove the damage reduction. Firing thirty-six rockets without having to pick up ammo and being able to tear Pyros apart at close range was something players were doing since the game was released, yet obviously I do not think the game was better that way.
Also, I made a mistake in that sentence. “Another significant reason is the fact that the ÜberCharge mechanic has been around since Team Fortress 2 was released and it’s considered acceptable or imbalanced” should be “… it’s considered acceptable and not imbalanced.”
Blarg responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 6:57 am #
Good article, I appreciate the defense of the sandman. I’m a habitual (and not half bad) medic player so I should have been suffering the most from the sandman’s effects (based upon the general whining about uber-breaking, etc.). Honestly, if you get stunned while ubering someone, its your own fault for not hiding behind someone or something bigger and meatier than you. On the other hand, if whoever you’re ubering happens to be stunned, just switch from the heavy you were on to the soldier next to you. It’s really not that hard people.
GeneralGoose responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 7:11 am #
And as mentioned before, you have no personal experience with OR against the Sandman. I had personal experience AGAINST the Sandman, which is why I hate it so. And it’s like me saying all the recent Sonic/GTA/Halo games are crap/great, provide reasons I read off the internet and then thinking I had more legitimate opinions then those with actual experience.
Teridax responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 7:20 am #
Noobie51, hou haven’t actually contradicted me…does that suggest anything?
Oh, and the Sandman flame war has just been reignited. Kudos to you, Supremesonic, for screwing us all. And all the commentators for playing his game. And Noobie51 who seems to have the same view on the Sandman as Ayatollah Khomeini on women (i.e.: must not exist). And me for being a retarded douche who thinks his opinion’s better than anyone elses’. And finally the Sandman, for being so damn controversial.
n00bie51 responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 7:44 am #
Teridax, the difference being that women have been around for QUITE some time (Idk if you’ve noticed this) and the Sandman hasn’t. I never stated that you contradicted me either, I simply replied with, “No, I am not saying blah blah blah.” Nothing is being suggested, and if it is, then I suspect you for selecting that small quoting from my post without addressing the entire argument that I stated in it without the intent of conducting mature, intelligent discussion.
The Sandman sucks. Disagree? Then by all means, express yourself and prove me wrong. I’m more than willing to hear other people out and my opinion can be changed. If not, then don’t hate me if I come up with a soul-destroying rebuttal.
n00bie51 responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 7:44 am #
(Not saying anybody here in particular would hate me for doing so, but I hope you get my point.)
kanodin responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 8:10 am #
I believe the root of this argument is a misunderstanding, this specific one about time not the whole overarching sandman issue. I will explain, Teridax read that comment as noobie saying that if something has existed a long time it should not be changed solely for that, whereas I believe he meant that it had existed a long time without any sizeable part of the players claiming it was overpowered and demanding nerfs and thus this counter was unneeded.
In other news I am still looking for one of the many claiming the sandman was not overpowered to counter the point about a one hit kill rather then merely mouthing agreement.
Slipstream responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 8:29 am #
*high fives Supreme*
WE LIKE TO DISAGREE WITH YOU.
Good article. I can’t whole-heartedly agree, but the points made are valid and worthy of an argument. Well done.
Teridax responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 8:29 am #
Thx for mediating, Kanodin, but you misinterpreted me. What I’m saying is that if something’s been around for a long time it becomes accepted, even if it actually IS bad/overpowered. Which means that you’ll learn to accept the Sandman, despite its apparent OPness, if you continue playing for some time.
I’m still awaiting that contradiction, Noobie51. Come out and fight like a man (or a woman, but if you’re one you’d obviously be OP, and thus trounce me in the most humiliating way).
xx responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 8:33 am #
COUGH COUGH biased scout player view.
Sarda responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 8:35 am #
@Monchberter (way up there at the top of the comments list)
“With all the other examples you gave of frustrating deaths, you can appreciate them as you can always say to yourself “hmm, if only i’d have done something and i ‘may’ have lived…””
“Hmm, if only I’d have pulled my finger out of my nose and realized that there’s a scout looking at me…”
The thing is, there are always times when something’s going to be unavoidable without having done something completely different(i.e. joining the other team), but most of the time(as with all other weapons), YOU CAN AVOID THE DAMN BALL.
Ota responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 8:47 am #
I stopped at “i’m on the 360″,i mean, WTF is this?.
Self Awareness to the fact that you have no experience with, well, what you are writing about, makes absolutly no difference, any raging asshlole on the steampowered forums should be payed more attention to on this matter than you. Ignorance doesn’t mean a second opinion, or different perspective, it’s just plain old dumbass ignorance.
Please moderate the content better, i really like the blog, but this is the kind of shit that makes me want to stay away.
Secret Agent Clank! responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 8:56 am #
@deki: Lol, sure.
Don’t think I’d care to argue, but I’d still like to point out the following sentence:
“Imagine being endowed with super-resistance to damage while you’re getting pummelled…”
Scout’s always been a flanker, a hit-and-run class, who comes back to hit you when you don’t expect it. Rarely a direct combat class. I’ve seen plenty of good ones who pull it off quite nicely (visit the ATF server, for example). Which is why I’ve always disliked them; my MPC’s need concentration, save the Pyro.
This has changed that, though I’m starting to get used to it. Not very, though.
Teridax responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 9:01 am #
As a PC player, I can tell you that Supremesonic’s arguments are correct, from a fact point of view at least. The FAN does actually grant you a full extra jump, but it IS quite hard to use it correctly. Countless times I have failed my great escape as a Scout just because I shot myself into a wall, and not the ledge I was aiming for.
Anyhoo, “just dodge it” is a mostly valid argument that a lot of whiners simply force themselves to ignore. I said mostly valid because the only case where you’re going to dodge a ball is if you’re aware of the Scout firing it. But still, if moving in an unpredictable pattern can foil Snipers/Spies/Soldiers/Demomen/Flare Gun Pyros, it can certainly foil Sandman Scouts. Except in narrow corridors, in which case it’s your fault for losing to the Scout when he’s at his weakest (it’s like being forced to become a Tunnel Vision Scout, who simply run towards their doom).
Pyrit responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 9:09 am #
I don’t think people can say how a class is supposed to definitely be played, Clank. If that was the case, you should never see Scouts on defence or Heavies on offence.
I always thought of Scouts as confusing the hell out of people moreso than ambushing them. Darting around, wall bouncing and especially jumping over someone (seriously, people’s aim gets pretty messed when they try to follow you around like that). Yes, there’s some ambushing involved, but you could say that for many classes like the Demoman, Soldier, Heavy etc. It’s only really the Pyro who ’specialises’ in ambushing.
I think unlocks are fine if they influence a different style of play. Infact, I say they should do that. The flare gun does it nicely and so does the airblast. The Sandman is a different playstyle I don’t like, however.
Connor lonske responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 9:20 am #
Have you ever been hit by a base ball in a head, It would stop an uber, trust me. It knocked me out for 2 minutes. My dad thought I was dead! I think the base ball could do it.
n00bie51 responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 9:21 am #
Teridax, I’ll call it like I see it — I think the Sandman is absurd and negatively affects TF2, and will continue to defame it as so. In fact, if you don’t know already, some consider me ultra-conservative, believing that all unlockable content shouldn’t exist in TF2 and that the game would be better without them. I have my reasons for strongly disliking the Sandman, and the passage of time won’t be significant enough to dull the sting for me.
You know what else has been around since the beginning of TF2? Sticky spam. Do people have a problem with it? Yes. Although I think it’s somewhat unfortunate that Valve has nerfed the Demo Man as much as they have, I don’t like the fact the sticky launcher can effectively act as the primary weapon for direct confrontation. Perhaps it’s just a fundamental flaw in the weapon that can’t be resolved, but does that mean it’s a non-issue to me? No, it isn’t.
“Just dodge it”? Please tell that to the Heavy players like myself who for the majority of their time spent playing TF2 have never ever had to worry about being immobilized and subsequently killed with impunity by the Scout until recently? How am I supposed to freaking dodge it being the big fat juicy target that I am? Have people forgotten Heavies need to rev their primary in order to use it and that they’re slow and are consequently made more vulnerable to baseballs?
Your move, Teridax.
Connor lonske responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 9:30 am #
kanodin, that makes no sence, a wooden bad is much worse to be hit with than a metal bat. You would be feeling it for days. But, A wooded bat is harder to swing so fast, so i think if it has to be nerfed, make it slower and stronger, but in a balanced way so that its an alternative, but i would rather it not be nerfed.
Bodjo responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 9:37 am #
It might be a good idea to actually PLAY the PC version of the game before writing an article about the PC version of TF2. I’m a little surprised by the way valve nerfed the sandman, but not displeased.
Teridax responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 9:39 am #
Noobie51, just have a teammate around. Anyway, as a Heavy, What’s the little punk gonna do anyway? With the new nerf you’ll only receive a maximum of 175 damage from him, and that’s if he gets two consecutive crits. No big deal for someone with 300 health and a Sandvich (or a doctor). BTW if you’re ultra-conservative there’s no point in arguing with you is it? You’ll just entrench yourself further and further into your ideas you judge unbreakable. Also, try ducking. It works. If you try it, you’ll evade quite a few stuns. If you don’t try it, you deserve to get stunned. Also, sticky spam got nerfed big time, and no one complained. The Sandman just got nerfed big time. See the correlation here?
About the Heavy: Have you noticed that you’ve also got a melee weapon in your loadout? hint: It’s not ornamental. Or you can use the shotgun.
Yes, it’s never fun to be stunned. But it can be useful. You can spot things you haven’t seen before and which could have potentially killed you (such as a hidden sentry nest), and you pretty much shrug off bullets while stunned.
If you don’t like sidegrades in general, don’t go whining after the release of the latest unlock pack. Just disable unlocks on your own server and play in it.
Teridax responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 9:39 am #
Also, Noobie51, why do you hate unlocks?
Your turn.
kanodin responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 9:59 am #
conor, I’m not sure what you’re talking about, all I said was I agree with the way it was nerfed and why, I was not proposing changes.
Teridax in asking that question you have opened the flood gates, good luck not getting swept away in pages of argument.
Teridax responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 10:18 am #
Thanks Kanodin. Now, let’s see what sweeping torrent Noobie51 will produce…
Btw Kano, what’s your thoughts on the Sandman?
kanodin responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 10:36 am #
I believe that it was overpowered because if you were hit by it and alone, you were basically dead, especially against scouts with the scattergun. While it does take some skill and a little luck to nail people with the ball, it should not be on the same level as the backstab or the headshot in effectiveness.
I do feel that the nerf went a little far, either 50% loss in damage or stun time alone would have been sufficient, but on the whole it feels more like a replacement know, and it’s only a doomed situation if your alone and the scouts not, which is alot more fair.
kanodin responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 10:40 am #
Oh and as someone who has stopped ubers as a pyro and not died, I’m not seeing why stunning them is so much worse then the airblast.
Bodjo responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 11:44 am #
kanodin – it’s because airblasters have to keep blasting at close range – and at high risk to themselves – to counter an uber, AND they don’t eliminate the ability to move or shoot.
Monchberter responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 11:52 am #
@ Sarda
You mistake my argument good sir.
I don’t mind the getting HIT by a ball, as yes, you can avoid that most of the time. It’s being helpless and pulled into 3rd person when hit that is unnecessary. As i suggested; do away with the 3rd person view and have the sandman reduce vision and movement speed. Then the person hit would not feel so hard done by and call ‘cheap’ as they would still retain a little control, and the Scout will still have a decent chance of a kill. Hell, reinstate 100% damage and noone would even care.
kanodin responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 12:15 pm #
I think I just figured something out about most players based on bodjo’s statement. While I have heard that argument before the way you phrased it made it clear it was really all about how increased risk should increase reward, a common belief but one that’s never been all that applicable to TF2.
I’ll explain, consider the ubercharge, it is the ultimate weapon of the game because for 10 seconds, risks are eliminated, yet the medic will always build one up at the start of the game, where there is also zero risk.
Further consider the rampant sniper hate often showcased here, does it not stem from the fact that he shot you at a range where you could not fight back, and therefore it was only a little risky for the sniper to snipe from that position.
It all makes sense they’ve been applying the idea of risk=reward instead of the rock paper scissors and skill effects that actually dictate how TF2 is played, and that is why the uber stun seems unfair to them.
Doc ock rokc responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 12:23 pm #
@Monchberter
Your suggestion has been stated on steam fourms but still is shot down for this reason. Visual effects cant be extravagent or the causal player with his causal computer cant see anything at all. also a soldier pyro and demo would just spam and the decreased movement wouldnt really effect the heavy at all.
thus your “stun” is worthless
n00bie51 responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 12:55 pm #
Teridax, I don’t know where to begin…
This is the original story I had published for ÜberCharged a while back: http://www.ubercharged.net/2008/09/20/disapproving-of-unlockables/
More recently, I posted a thread in the forums delving into greater detail: http://www.ubercharged.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=1096&p=1
I apologize if you go through the links and bother reading all my text. I consider none of my ideas to be unbreakable, but I believe them to be strong and solid — you have to give me extreme insight and a good argument to change my opinion on this matter. Perhaps there is no changing my mind and I’m being stubborn, but I have my reasons and they’re good ones.
Excuse me, but I’m too tired to effectively convey what I desire to express through this text. I’ll follow this reply up with more content tomorrow. (The two links I’ve provided will probably be enough to occupy you for a while anyway.)
Plasto Joe responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 1:34 pm #
Geez, 80 comments. And from my time zone, it looks like this article’s so inflammatory you’re getting responses from the future.
As far as the nerf is concerned, I’d say that if Valve went so far in tweaking the Sandman’s abilities, they noticed something potentially game-breaking about it. You know as well as we all do that they don’t wet their pants even over a million crying forumers.
Now I don’t know their procedures myself, but I’d imagine if enough people complained about specific issues, they’d at least review the weapon’s stats and do some testing to check it out. Then, if their results validated those complaints, they’d release an update.
That said…
I thought this was a great article, if only for the fact that you had the cast-iron balls to write it. I did also appreciate how you admitted the Sandman’s ability to stop ubers is rather ridiculous.
Coming Second responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 3:55 pm #
Bit of an essay, this.
Valve have said before that they are more likely to chuck something wild into the game and see how it goes than adopt a “softly softly” approach, because they feel they can learn more that way. Have a think about this, then think about the last two updates.
The original Pyro package was greeted with howls of rage: from a slightly underpowered class overnight Pyro became a no-damage-drop-off more-health-than-the-Soldier unstoppable monster. Those brave souls who chose not to equip the Backburner received a defence against what until then had been considered a Pyro counter, the Soldier. Valve quickly dropped a lot of the buffs they’d introduced. But Pyro remained extremely popular. If you’re going on “stimulating player interest in a class”, the Pyro pack is by far the most successful.
Probably mindful of the reaction to the Pyro update, Valve’s update for the Heavy was far more gentle. None of Heavy’s new weapons are generally considered OP, indeed many people consider both Natascha and the Sandvich much inferior to what they replace. Certainly he gained nothing to fight his two main enemies, the Sniper and Spy with. If you look at “most played classes” on Steamstats, you’ll see Heavy is rooted to the bottom. This despite his extremely healthy kills per hour and points per hour stats.
So what had Valve learnt from this? First and foremost, crazy wild updates are better at generating interest in a class than carefully measured ones. Secondly, giving a class a defence against a soft counter works better in generating interest than not. Thirdly, changing health on a class based upon what weapon he has is not a good idea; it is better to fiddle around with the classes’ core abilities. Fourthly, people like weapons that do physics things.
As far as the Sandman’s concerned, it obviously needed a nerf but I can’t help but feel Valve have thrown the baby out with the bathwater whilst ignoring the REALLY imbalanced thing about it, pointed out above time and again. I suspect Valve CAN’T up and remove the ability to stun ubers because they’ve written it into an achievement, which was really very ill-sighted of them.
Now the thing feels slightly useless generally- hitting a Soldier at close range and watching it bounce off his impervious face is rather annoying, and even if you did stun him, and even if his team-mates decide not to protect him, how do you intend on doing what amounts to 400 damage in the 3 seconds before he snaps out of it and gibs you? And gib you he will, because you don’t have the double jump needed to dodge his rockets. It feels increasingly like an anti-uber weapon, nothing more.
*Removed Sandman’s ability to stun ubers- players who have already achieved “The Big Hurt” retain it, those who haven’t get a different achievement
*Only the Scout who stunned them does -50% damage to the player- others on his team retain full damage against the stunned
Fixed.
Doc ock rokc responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 4:52 pm #
@coming second
You make a fine point on the experimentation of the updates i to have noted this and was going to say something about it but you plainly beat me to it.
although you notice this you failed to notice that the sandman has a purpose to fill. it is meant as a defensive weapon. It also keeps Bad classes such as band-aid medics and w+m1 pyros in line! before the update i admit that the Sandman was a little op when there was more the 2 or 3 scouts useing it. but now its way underpowered in the fact that the scout now hurts his team to use it. I initially thought they would incorporate a way to dodge it if you…say…couched at the right time but now the achievement Strike zone is up there with pyromancer because of the whiners stupid ranting.
Stunning ubers is the only thing the scout has left to use this weapon. i will allow a dodge for it but i cant stand Idelle by while you fucks ruin a weapon that isnt overpowered because you cant fucking let your fucking Rambo moments fail!
Mechaflash responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 4:53 pm #
I seriously wonder why you were allowed to put this up. Any points you made, no matter how valid, are instantly negated because of the simple fact that you play on the 360.
Schwegs responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 6:07 pm #
@Himmel
@Clank
etc
Well said guys. I’m so tired of the only people actually defending the sandman are those who either:
A. Have scout as one of their MPCs
B. Rarely play games which fundamentally require ubers and a cohesive team to move forward (e.g. offense on Dustbowl)
C. Don’t play (PC) TF2 much at all
I’m sure there will be controversy when the remaining classes get their updates as well. However, this isn’t a single player game, so it’s more than valid to point out serious problems that make the game less fun to play for *everyone* involved — not just those who play the updated class (in this case, scout), or who play TF2 in limited roles.
Valve does a good job for the most part of listening to the community and adjusting accordingly. Hopefully they will continue to address the issues the community has with the Sandman, so that TF2 continues to be a fun game to play, not a frustrating one.
Schwegs responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 6:45 pm #
Thx for the response, Noobie51. I actually disagree with your thoughts on some sidegrades being more like straight upgrades:
- As a Medic you have one of the highest crit chances in the game (along with the Engy) as you stack up your patient’s damage. Not being able to deal as much damage as a Heavy for 2 seconds (I’m not kidding, check the facts at TF2wiki) every 3 minutes or so (if you’re a good Medic) is a fair tradeoff. So the Blut’s pretty balanced.
-The Bonesaw was hardly used, the Ubersaw was meant to spice it up. Also, this weapon balances out not just with stats, but psychologically as well. Will you try to hit that menacing Demoman next to you for a full Ubercharge? The +25% charge bonus can lure you into a premature death, coupled with the slower firing rate.
- The Axetinguisher is useless in water and against dry targets, so no ninja strikes.It also forces you to attract the enemy’s full attention and then close in for the kill, where you may not survive.
- The Heavy’s fists were already slow weapons. The KGB is practically snail-speed, so it’s easy to dodge. Plus with the fists you get to one-shot people at a distance (the first true ranged melee attack).
Teridax responded on 19 Mar 2009 at 6:47 pm #
Wtf? My post came up as Schwegs’s. Note, the above post is mine.
Sorry schwegs.
Dude responded on 20 Mar 2009 at 12:03 am #
@Kanodin
So regarding the whole big-risk/big-reward idea (which I tried to note in some form earlier but Bodjo stated much more clearly than I), I see your points, but have some thoughts regarding them:
The start-up uber is pretty standard on both sides and can be countered (w/o Sandman…). I (and you, too, I’m sure) have seen the second part of Dustbowl go multiple different ways depending on how the varying ubers were handled, from a quick cap to a 5 minute spawn-camp party to an extended deadlock.
I would also argue Snipers are inherently at risk all the time due to 1) other snipers and 2) spies. It certainly doesn’t “feel” like a big risk situation, but snipers don’t really have a chance without hiding in the back. And back there, all alone, the sniper is clearly (or at least should be) the spy’s bitch.
Xzeron454 responded on 20 Mar 2009 at 12:50 am #
I agree with the fact that, being stunned sucks, however, when it comes to stopping an uber, i believe it is perfectly fair to have the Sand Man be capable. This is only because before a Uber could never be stopped in any way (aside from multiple sentries pushing you back). This offers a new dimension of play for players simple because now the Almighty Uber is not as Almighty as you thought. This also is able to give scouts a chance to survive longer than the average suicide scout.
JOP responded on 20 Mar 2009 at 2:49 am #
I’m with supremesonic on this one.
The Sandman may well be overpowered. Unfortunately, it is very difficult to have a real conversation about this, because most arguments devolve quickly into the same tired cliches: “I get hit all the time”, “You can’t dodge it”, etc.
What supremesonic did was point out the numerous logical fallacies that permeate this specific, tired points. You don’t need to be a PC player to see the illogic in a statement like “I hate being stunned; therefore, the Sandman is overpowered.”
kanodin responded on 20 Mar 2009 at 3:11 am #
Dude, those are of course valid points, I was merely using those two concepts to illustrate a larger point.
I have thought of a better one however, the Pyro. Consider the suicide rusher, he is taking the highest risk possible in charging headlong at the enemy team, and 9 times out of 10 he is shot down before even touching them. Even when his rush succeeds, it is not him being rewarded but him being lucky and doing it at the right moment. Compare this to the smarter pyro, who watches his enemy and approaches from unexpected angles, effectively taking less risk and gaining more.
I do however, feel I was too hasty in saying a calculated acceptance of risk was never a factor yesterday, but they have to be legitimately risking something first. In the above example the suicidal pyro was not really risking anything because he would just respawn, compare this to say a medic, who must constantly decide whether to advance or stay behind and build uber in safety, or a spy who must decide to either remain incognito a bit longer or break his disguise and attack, losing the progress he has made into the enemy base.
kanodin responded on 20 Mar 2009 at 3:11 am #
Also, I’m betting that’s one of the more eloquent sentences that started with dude.
Dark Master responded on 20 Mar 2009 at 3:14 am #
Oh dear, it seems n00bie51 is calling me out. I’ll see if I will or won’t come up with an essay rebutal, but its pretty late in the conversation to be throwing that out.
Though, if you read my previous argument, the Sandman was worse then death because you had to wait the additional time to die then your respawn timer would start; you may as well just use the suicide key so you respawn faster.
PS: I don’t think there should be any instant kills in multiplayer games that don’t require a huge amount or risk and/or preperation to pull off (ie. headshots – bad, backstabs – good)
Nessmk2 responded on 20 Mar 2009 at 8:13 am #
THe ubercharge was placed in from the beginning to be a stalemate breaker and a powerful, but relatively infrequent, weapon. I imagine Valve wants to make it hard, but not impossible, to counter. Even at launch a sentry could stop an uber if placed well and if the team wasn’t co-ordinated in following up the uber. The compression blast, added to the pyro, only stops the uber as long as the pyro is in the face of the uber, and alive. Both can be hard to pull off, as you either need to A)start by the Uber or B) get close to the uber, likely while the uber-ee and/or his team is firing at you. and C) you need to stay alive all throughout.
The problems with the sandman are that A) It can be done from a distance. B) Once started, it cannot be stopped and C) Killing the scout does nothing.
It also breaks the suspention of disbelief for most players. We can agree that you might not be instantly exploded by a rocket, that ammo mysteriously changes to fit your gun, that we have teleporters in the 1960’s… but the fact that a baseball can stop what rockets, countless bullets, fire and BOMBS can’t scratch is a bit… hard to swallow.
n00bie51 responded on 20 Mar 2009 at 8:27 am #
Preceding your rebuttal that the weapons aren’t over powered, Teridax, classes shouldn’t even NEED unlockables to balance them out. I find myself in disagreement when people say, “Oh, the Spy is having a tough time, I hope that he’ll be buffed and made more balanced in the Spy Update.”
Having said that…
-The Blutsauger is an outright replacement to the default Syringe Gun for substantial reason. The number of Medics who wield the Blutsauger significantly out number those who unlocked the Blutsauger yet choose to use the default Syringe Gun. What is more advantageous, the occasional Critical Hit versus significantly increasing longevity in fire fights? I don’t actually think I’ve ever actually encountered anybody who dared to call the Blutsauger balanced. I still struggle to believe that Valve actually thinks not being able to Critical Hit is a reasonable draw back equivalent to the advantage of being able to deal the same amount of damage as a Syringe Gun and heal at the same time. (Here’s something else you can think about, since Critical Hits are the only advantage the Syringe Gun has over the Blutsauger, what happens when one plays in a no-Crit server?) They’re not balanced.
-A slightly slower swinging speed is absolutely crushed by the fact you can turn the tide of the game by building up your ÜberCharge in a matter of a few hits with the melee weapon. I’m not saying it’s practical for Medics to go around with their Über Saws out all the time in order to try to build up their Übers, but the advantages of having the Über Saw greatly outweigh its drawback. Like the Blutsauger, the number of Medics who use the Über Saw greatly out number the Medics who have unlocked the Über Saw yet choose to use the default Bone Saw.
-Here’s the thing about the Axtinguisher — while when you compare them side by side, the Axtinguisher has a respectable draw back of not being able to deal Critical Hits on opponents that are not ablaze, it is a much more ideal weapon to have than the Fire Axe for several reasons. For one, given proper timing and execution, the Pyro can kill a Heavy faster than if he uses the flame thrower (not counting using the BB from behind).
Again, much like the Medic’s Blutsauger and the Über Saw, I believe that the number of Pyros that wield the Axtinguisher is significantly greater than the number of Pyros that wield the Fire Axe despite unlocking the Axtinguisher (though it may not be as substantial as the previous examples).
-An egregious mistake you made is claiming that “The Heavy’s fists were already slow weapons.” Here is a little chat I had with Himmelstoss:
Thursday, March 19, 2009
5:00 PM – XLR8 | (ÜC-A++) n00bie51: Heavy fists, Sniper’s machete, Demo’s bottle, Soldier’s shovel, Medic’s Bone Saw — don’t they all have the EXACT same swinging speed?
5:00 PM – XLR8 | (ÜC-A++) n00bie51: And deal the same amount of damage?
5:01 PM – XLR8 | (ÜC-A++) n00bie51: Correct me if I’m wrong.
5:01 PM – himmelstoss (uc++): yes.
Heavy’s fists, contrary to your statement, aren’t any different from the default melee weapons that belong to the Soldier, Pyro, Demo Man, Engineer, Medic, or Sniper. The fact that the Heavy doesn’t punch as fast as it appears he is capable of doing so deceives players into improperly timing their swings, which is why it appears Heavies are prone to missing their melee hits, especially with the fact they move at the same speed as Soldiers. (A Heavy running around with his fists out is like a Soldier with 300 HP wielding his shovel.)
5:11 PM – XLR8 | (ÜC-A++) n00bie51: How much slower is the K.G.B.’s swinging speed?
5:11 PM – himmelstoss (uc++): 25% i believe
5:11 PM – XLR8 | (ÜC-A++) n00bie51: -20% or -25%?
5:11 PM – XLR8 | (ÜC-A++) n00bie51: Okay.
5:12 PM – XLR8 | (ÜC-A++) n00bie51: If you’re wrong, then I will rape you.
5:12 PM – XLR8 | (ÜC-A++) n00bie51: I’m too lazy to go into TF2 and check it myself or look it up on Google.
5:12 PM – himmelstoss (uc++): i don’t know
5:12 PM – himmelstoss (uc++): tf2wiki
5:12 PM – himmelstoss (uc++): gogogogo
5:12 PM – XLR8 | (ÜC-A++) n00bie51: I don’t doubt you.
5:13 PM – XLR8 | (ÜC-A++) n00bie51: Wtf?
5:13 PM – XLR8 | (ÜC-A++) n00bie51: They say 20%.
5:13 PM – himmelstoss (uc++): that so
5:13 PM – himmelstoss (uc++): i dunno.
5:13 PM – himmelstoss (uc++): i don’t keep track of these things
5:13 PM – XLR8 | (ÜC-A++) n00bie51: I’m going to check in-game.
5:15 PM – XLR8 | (ÜC-A++) n00bie51: Yup, -20%.
What does this mean? The Heavy’s Fists and the Medic’s Bone Saw have the exact same swinging speed, and the Über Saw and the K.G.B. are identical in this aspect. So, for what I would consider an absurdly negligible drawback, I get Critical Hits for five seconds. That’s a greater benefit than having a slightly faster swinging speed and ultimately has a deeper effect on the results of the game.
Although it’s not significant as the previous examples mentioned before, I would still like to say I’m sure the players that wield the K.G.B. out number those who choose to pick the fists over the K.G.B. even after unlocking them (the major factor probably being that you can’t taunt-kill with the K.G.B.).
-Your move.
In response to JOP, I agree that “You don’t need to be a PC player to see the illogic [sic] in a statement like ‘I hate being stunned; therefore, the Sandman is overpowered.’ and this article isn’t actually as bad as I made it out to be. I just want to reaffirm that there ARE significant issues revolving around the Sandman and that they definitely need to be addressed.
And yes, kanodin, that is probably one of the most eloquent sentences starting with dude (I’ve experienced some amusing discussions and statements regarding significant topics such as politics, philosophy, religion, etc. starting with the word “dude.”)
Dark Master, I’ve seen you provide interesting and valuable insight in the past, feel free to attract my attention and join the discussion at any time.
Himmelstoss responded on 20 Mar 2009 at 9:14 am #
Brilliant, n00bie51. Well said.
n00bie51 responded on 20 Mar 2009 at 9:41 am #
Crap, I forgot to elaborate on the Axtinguisher. I’m adding an addendum to the section of text regarding the Axtinguisher.
-Here’s the thing about the Axtinguisher — while when you compare them side by side, the Axtinguisher has a respectable draw back of not being able to deal Critical Hits on opponents that are not ablaze, it is a much more ideal weapon to have than the Fire Axe for several reasons. For one, given proper timing and execution, the Pyro can kill a Heavy faster than if he uses the flame thrower (not counting using the BB from behind). Same goes with any class. It’s far from impossible or extremely difficult to surprise an opponent with the Axtinguisher (which I recall doing quite easily last night, jumping from C tower on Gravel Pit to set a RED Soldier running from the spawn towards B and then finishing him off with the Axtinguisher).
No ninja with the Axtinguisher? I think a real life ninja would disagree with you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72o2vLgsblo
Could THAT have happened with the Fire Axe, or something different of equal success? Although it’s true the advantages of the Axtinguisher are nullified under water, talk about a red herring — under water combat is rare, even on maps with water.
Coming Second responded on 20 Mar 2009 at 10:00 am #
@ noobie51, one thing you don’t mention in regard to Fists vs. KGB – the KGB don’t have a OHK ranged taunt attached to them. Given this, and given Heavy’s melee weapons are barely used anyway, it seems a bit silly to complain about them in the same breath as the Ubersaw.
n00bie51 responded on 20 Mar 2009 at 10:11 am #
Coming Second, you’re wrong. I did mention the fact that the fists can taunt kill and the K.G.B. couldn’t — look at the statement made in the parentheses:
“Although it’s not significant as the previous examples mentioned before, I would still like to say I’m sure the players that wield the K.G.B. out number those who choose to pick the fists over the K.G.B. even after unlocking them (the major factor probably being that you can’t taunt-kill with the K.G.B.).”
I hope all of you understand me, I’m not saying that these unlockable items are over powered or affects the game as much as, say, the Sandman has, but it’s over powered and imbalanced because its drawbacks are negligible and players are better off with these certain unlockables than with the default items. Yeah, Heavies don’t usually go around with their melee weapon out, but the issue is still there. Players won’t use the Sandman as much, but the problems that revolve around its mechanics are still there. I’m glad that the Scout fever is dying down and that the Sandman has been nerfed, which actually does make me feel much better about it, but I still don’t approve of it due to its nature as an unlockable weapon and the changes it brings to the gameplay.
Secret Agent Clank! responded on 20 Mar 2009 at 2:45 pm #
And now, Secret Agent Clank’s angry angry response @ Pyrit:
“I don’t think people can say how a class is supposed to definitely be played, Clank.”
The addition of “definitely,” which I never used to begin with, buffs your argument a bit, but I have yet to find a Spy who plays mainly by running into the front lines with his REVOLVER.
Or maybe I’ll just hold W + M1. While I’m a Sniper.
GOOD DAY TO YOU SIR.
@Teridax: While you’ve got some points, I still harbor disagreement with your statement ““Imagine being endowed with super-resistance to damage while you’re getting pummelled…” and your insistence that “you pretty much shrug off bullets while stunned.”
50% protection is NOT super-resistance, nor does it allow you to “shrug off bullets” based on the fact that you’re taking damage, yet dealing none of your own. And I’m pretty disappointed by the numerous people (read: Scouts) who insist that teamwork = you must be within 10 feet of another teammates at all times. Just, you know, in case a baseball comes along.
That all said, you will never find an article about the Scout update from me, though I may be on the forums about it.
n00bie51 responded on 20 Mar 2009 at 10:22 pm #
Congratulations, SAC, yours is the 100th comment posted here!
While it’s true that class designations shouldn’t be taken to heart (In the class menu, the Scout, Soldier, and Pyro are listed as Offense classes, while the Engineer, Demo Man, and Heavy are listed as Defense — a Soldier can make excellent defense and a Heavy a strong offensive player), there is a certain play style suited for each class, as SAC elegantly pointed out.
Although I’ve mentioned before that I’m glad the Sandman’s been nerfed, concentrated fire on a stationary target is still more than enough to destroy a stunned player. It’s just now the one-on-one confrontations are now much less pragmatic as a Scout.
Now that you’ve mentioned it, SAC, this “teamwork” suggested by those who advocate the Sandman is something I would expect in competitive matches, not in your average pub where the Sandman Scouts have run rampant (although thankfully much less so now).
While we’re at it, I’m not a big fan of the Force-a-Nature. If executed properly, one can take out any 125-175 HP class in less than a split second while it isn’t possible to do the same with a Scattergun. Yeah, the reload time for the FAN, although a disadvantage compared to the Scattergun, is short. Over time, the FAN deals more damage than the default primary. Perhaps I’ll elaborate more on this unlockable weapon later.
Dark Master responded on 21 Mar 2009 at 2:12 am #
Hmm, I thought something was going on, it looks like n00bie51 has the mind of a philosopher and has taken a university English class. Though, he may want to proof read longer posts so that he doesn’t end up off topic or lose his original message.
That said, lets see what I can come up with; I’ve said before that Valve uses the community to balance its additions, and that many weapons have been changed after their original release. Take the Backburner’s +50hp for instance. The new system is a fair trade off, I see just as many airblasters as backburners. However, in the old system, that wasn’t the case. Even then, there where a lot of people who said that the backburner didn’t have to be balanced and was good with the +50hp, even though there was a distinct advantage to equiping the backburnner even if you never ever used it in battle.
I’ll add that the Sandman radically changes the way tf2 works by introducing a stun effect and adding the most effective counter – to date – to the Ubercharge. I guess since the scout is an anti-medic class, that he should have that power ever other classes; but I always figured that he was suppose to kill the medics before they could finish charging their Ubers. Plus the medics couldn’t really expect to hit the scout with their ubersaws. The Sandman has a huge cost, comparable to the advantage given by the original backburner. The scout must commit a great deal to use it, should that be the case? Lets take a look from a different perspective.
Lets say the Sandman was the bat that the scout had when the game was first released and the scout never had the power to double jump, in the scout update, a much lighter aluminum bat is released that gives you the power to double jump, but weakens the scout’s melee weapon. Now the bat looks overpowered, because the scout is stronger just from having it equipped, unless they use their melee weapon. That seems a very poor mechanic for unlocks, unless it had another class changing aspect, like +25hp, but no double jump.
However, many people say the Sandman is overpowered even though it really limits the scout’s ability. Therefore, there is a problem, either the double jump really wasn’t all that valuable, it isn’t really necessary in battle, or the Sandman is much stronger then it should be in battle. Or the people complaining are just ranting.
Ok, that’s enough for now, I just hope this writing doesn’t just disappear in the depths of this comment list.
Big Boss (Sean Connery) responded on 21 Mar 2009 at 2:48 am #
I come back from a six-day vacation in Florida and what do I find?
Anyway, I’ve got to agree with the others. Ranting about something you have no experience with is a silly thing to do. It’s like a fanboy: Anything that is a foil to what they love, they hate, even if they have never tried, used, or completed it.
As for my experience with the Sandman, I have two opinions. If you can see the Scout and he shoots the ball at you (and you can actually SEE the ball), then it’s rather easy to dodge. However, if the Scout is behind you and you have no idea that he is there and he shoots the ball, then it’s quite annoying.
And I love what you said about having your team help you if you get stunned. It’s another thing about the game: I’ve played long enough to realize that the game isn’t Team Fortress 2, it’s just Fortress 2. The only time(s) I’ve ever actually seen teamwork is when a bunch of people decide to stick together when they all respawn at the same time.
And the fact that you admitted that you posted this just to see how many people would get angry at you… Either you’re an amazing troll or you’re an attention whore.
n00bie51 responded on 21 Mar 2009 at 6:43 am #
Thanks for the compliment, Dark Master; I figured, why don’t I produce eloquent speech through the text I communicate through over the discussion of games? Philosophy is an interest, too, and I believe the reason I have the opinions I’ve expressed is that they strongly adhere to what I honestly think is best for the game.
You’ve mentioned something interesting that others like Teridax have hinted at but never conveyed to a certain extent… what if the Sandman was the default weapon from the beginning of TF2? (Let’s ignore factors such as how people would find it absurd that somehow wielding an aluminum bat gives players an ability to double jump much like how they didn’t understand how the BB could give 50 extra HP or the Sandman itself disabling the DJ, or the fact that the developer might have made very different maps without considering the consequences of the double-jump ability and generally other significant altercations that could occur in this hypothetical situation.)
I’ll counter that with another what-if: Say that when Team Fortress 2 was released, the Back Burner was the default primary and Pyros could always deal Critical Hits from behind (without the original 50 HP boost, of course). (Although I prefer the compression blast, I think the Back Burner fits the Pyro’s role as an ambush class that is rewarded for stealth and flanking.) Then when the Pyro update would finally be released, the primary unlockable weapon would have the compression blast without the ability to deal back-Crits.
I don’t doubt there would have been some who would claim that the air blast was over powered, but I think the majority would see it as under powered due to the drawback of having no back-Crits.
With a pre-Scout update Sandman, I agree that the players would be able to recognize how valuable having that double jump is despite the fact they don’t even need to be using it, yet, would they find it worthy to surrender the powerful ability to significantly incapacitate an ÜberCharge? Yeah, it would make Scouts harder to hit and give them a great advantage over other classes, and there would be those complaining (I don’t doubt that maybe I would have been one of them) about how significantly it changes the game, but I don’t think many players would have the same stigma against the double-jumping bat than they do in reality with the Sandman.
I’m contemplating, and now that I think about it, perhaps in this alternate time line I would be defaming the aluminum bat merely because it was an unlockable item anyhow. However, that brings us back to another point, one that I have made in the past so I will reiterate: Team Fortress 2 was not released as a game where players were given persistent-rewards — if it was, then I wouldn’t be complaining about it. For a while, Team Fortress 2 had no unlockable content and that was acceptable to me since that was the way it was made.
Although I believe the system is significantly flawed in regards to skill-based competitive gameplay, I don’t complain about Call of Duty 4’s persistent rewards and Perk system because that’s how the game was made. If all the class packs came with the release of TF2, I would not be voicing the same distress, because I wouldn’t have to worry about significant changes that affect the gameplay and damage consistency in the long run.
I would probably have greater tolerance for the Sandman had it been around since the release of TF2, because it wouldn’t create such inconsistency by altering the gameplay the way it has. From TF2’s release up until the Scout update, those who played Scout were rewarded mostly for their skill, in regards to circle-strafing, dodging, flanking, precise aim, etc. With the pre-nerf Sandman, you didn’t need that, instead, you could just stun somebody with the Sandman and finish off a stationary target, and you could do this against ANY class in one-on-one confrontations. What change, what inconsistency! It’s terrible for skill-based, competitive gameplay (which I am quite fond of).
When I played for the first time after the release of the Scout pack, I was shocked and infuriated when I revved Sasha up in front of a crowd of Scouts only to be stunned in the middle of an ÜberCharge. Ridiculous. I don’t think players should be afraid or timid of being aggressive with the freaking ÜberCharge when they haven’t had to worry about being incapacitated to such an extent since the game has been released up until recently.
Your move.
BathrobeAssassin responded on 21 Mar 2009 at 11:32 am #
Good god, you guys argue almost as much as /v/.
Kollega responded on 21 Mar 2009 at 3:29 pm #
Okay.
@ everyone: losing control in a middle of a firefight is FRUSTRATING,losing control while being Ubercharged (and wasting precious charge time) is EXTREMLY FRUSTRATING.
@ everyone who says “teamwork”. Teamwork is on a front lines,but you have to get there. And if there’s no teleporter,Sandman-wielding Scout can just ambush you,stun you,and kill you. At least he could before this nerf, now it’s more difficult (but still,not impossible).
Anonymous responded on 22 Mar 2009 at 3:41 pm #
It’s nice to see discussion, but many of these longer posts often have no clear topic and devolve into paragraph after paragraph of ranting.
n00bie51 responded on 22 Mar 2009 at 10:21 pm #
Who is ranting, fool? Most of the text that appears has a clear purpose and we’re just debating over the issue of unlockable content and the Sandman.
By the way, having actually unlocked the Sandman, I laugh at all the noobs here who think it takes skill to use — it’s practically synonymous with the Flare Gun.
Himmelstoss responded on 23 Mar 2009 at 6:21 am #
I’m surprised this is still getting comments. To everyone who likes the sandman: play heavy a bit and rethink.
Teridax responded on 23 Mar 2009 at 7:31 am #
Hello again. Now, back to our passionate war, Noobie51:
- A nocrit server is a nocrit server. You could also say that X mechanic is unbalanced by Diceroll servers, 32-man servers, etc. Not a valid point.
- Most people stick with unlocks because they’re unlocks. I agree, it’s far more easy to play a Blut/Ubersaw Medic but you’d miss on some advanced tactics.
- As a Medic, you rack up a HUGE crit chance thanks to your patient, like the Engineer his Sentry, the Sniper his rifle and the Spy his knife. Negating that crit chance can mean death at the hands of a group while you could have killed them all. So the Blut could be called balanced (just to contradict you
).
- Weapon speed can be a matter of life and death. Charging in at your weakest only to find that you missed your crucial hit equals die. You don’t notice it but in retrospect you may realise it. So slower speed balances out more or less. Anyway, melee fights don’t happen that often.
- That video with OMFGNinja doesn’t impress me. I’m sorry, but I just think he’s a show-off who records his vids on noob pubs (I mean, he attacked that group and took next to no damage, it wouldn’t happen on a good server). Anyhoo, when I meant ninja strikes I meant attacking from nowhere with a melee weapon. You need to set someone on fire first, and by then you’ve got their full attention. So that failed strike against that Heavy could have gone better if you had the Fire axe. And water combat happens, even if it is uncommon. Which means the Pyro’s even weaker as he’d only be able to use his shotgun- and that’s if he has it in his loadout.
- Also, what could you expect? The developers had to make interesting weapons as sidegrades to mostly uninteresting (although stylish) melee weapons.
- To anyone who complains about BB OPness, the only time it was the case was during the +50hp period. The normal flamethrower can reflect explosives, and thus counter a counter, it can disorient enemies and disrupt Ubercharges. It’s more versatile than the BB, which is only deadly when preceded by clever ambushing tactics.
- Playing as a Heavy from time to time, I do get bonked a lot. But everytime it happened, I either formulated a quick plan, calmed down a bit and generally buffed my skills temporarily before mowing down the little punk who threw the ball in the first place, forgetting that the new -50 damage taken nerf prevented them from killing me. You aren’t exactly a bullet sponge, but if there’s only the Scout there you can sit back fairly comfortably. If he’s got his team, why haven’t you got yours? Unless you’re a Spy, in which case it’s your own fault for arousing the Scout’s suspicion.
- If you’re the aggressive killinator gamer type (i.e. rabid point-hunter) you will get pissed off everytime you get bonked, but consider this: Why not cool down and use this stun time to think about your situation? You just spotted a Sniper: is he a priority? or would you rather target that Medic? Where’s the nearest escape route? How will you get past that Sentry? By formulating tactics on the fly like this you could save your skin and get a few good kills too. Sure, there’s the respawn time, but then you were dead, your information may not have been up to date. Basically, when stunned it’s like being a semi-vulnerable Spectator: You can see what’s going on, and in a few seconds you’re gonna adapt to it.
- The ability to stun Ubers is total bullcrap in my opinion. That’s pretty much the only facet of the Sandman I really hate. Also, you were right, all standard weapons (bonesaw, kukri, fists…) fire at a .8 second interval. Sorry.
Your move.
Also, funny fact: This topic seems to have melded with the new one, and thus created a horribly deformed monster in the process. Run for your lives!
Alex responded on 23 Mar 2009 at 7:50 am #
there is something wrong with the gap between this post and the most recent one – i.e. there is no gap
Helpful me.
Dark Master responded on 24 Mar 2009 at 2:08 am #
Now, adding to the glitches that have been happening on this sit; its the article that doesn’t end at the right place, and lacks a comments section, even when the title is clicked on!
*cheer/boo*
*cheer/boo*
*cheer/boo*
n00bie51 responded on 24 Mar 2009 at 6:34 am #
Teridax,
-Maybe. No Crits isn’t the way TF2 was meant to be played. However, it does affect competitive play since Critical Hits are disabled more frequently.
-Advanced tactics? Getting Critical Hits with a Syringe Gun and having a slightly faster swinging speed for the Bone Saw? Please, elaborate.
-No, the Blutsauger cannot be called balanced. For many, it is an outright replacement that will give them greater benefits than having the ability to deal Critical Hits with the Syringe Gun and they will be better off for it in the long run.
I am already aware that the Medics are prone to building up the Crit chance, but when a Pyro has set you on fire, you will have the ability to gain back HP by shooting at an enemy every single time with the Blutsauger. You won’t, however, have the ability to kill an enemy quickly with powerful Critical Hits.
-Yeah, but the weapon speed is so insignificant it’s almost trivial. The Über Saw and K.G.B. still swing relatively fast. Again, the only time when using the fists or the Bone Saw would be better than using the unlockables is when you’re fighting one-on-one against another player and when the Critical Hits or ÜberCharge won’t mean anything in the long run.
Even if melee fights don’t occur that often, it’s still an issue. Yeah, it’s good that the number of Scouts have declined and that there is less Sandman use, but do I still find it upsetting that ÜberCharges can be rendered ineffective by it? Yes.
-OMFGNinja still kicks ass, noob pub or not, and unless the player has superb accuracy and reflexes, he can be in trouble when a Pyro ambushes him, switches to his Axtinguisher and finishes him off in less than a second. When I play as Heavy, there are plenty times when Pyros set me on fire and attempt to use the Axtinguisher on me, but that’s because I would see them coming. I’m not saying that going on a Crit-spree with the Fire Axe isn’t possible or fun, but being able to deal these Critical Hits consistently is superior. Yes, the Axtinguisher is not good if you’re underwater, but if you can say melee fights don’t occur that often, then I’ll say the disadvantages are made minimal here as well.
Something else I realized: If you have all of the unlockables equipped as a Pyro (Back Burner, Flare Gun, and Axtinguisher), you’re at a significant disadvantage.
-Some of them aren’t side grades though, they’re UPGRADES, and I have a problem with THAT.
-I agree, and I think the Back Burner and the default Flame Thrower are equally balanced (but the bb is moar noobish and teh air blast is for pr0 win).
-Again, that teamwork is difficult to come across in the majority of pubs I play. What you’re suggesting borders competitive style matches, which assume my team mates are competent and well coordinated and are in constant communication with myself (whereas it doesn’t require that same competence to concentrate fire on a stationary target). Yes, players in pubs should realize they have a team to work with, but my underlying point is that we shouldn’t have to deal with this crap because we haven’t had to do so since the beginning of the game up until the Scout class pack’s release.
-That’s some decent insight, Teridax, but that spectating won’t do me any good in the short term if I’m dead after I’ve been disintegrated.
-Something we both agree on, I suppose that’s the aspect of the Sandman I don’t like the most, too.
-Your move.
Teridax responded on 24 Mar 2009 at 6:53 pm #
Nice argument, Noobie51, but we’re just going round in circles. I.e our argument here is:
Noobie51: Unlocks are OP *presents argument*
Teridax: Unlocks aren’t OP *presents argument*
Noobie51: No, unlocks are OP *presents same argument as before*
Teridax: Unlocks are like totally balanced *presents same argument*
Anyway:
- Advanced tactics: Using crits on purpose, timing your melee hits to avoid the enemy but still hit him (more difficult with slow weapons).
- Are you being serious when you say that you can defeat a Pyro with the Blut because it heals you? A crit Syringe gun would already kill him in about .33 seconds (with 540 dps), giving you time to get healed. A blut would simply ensure a few more seconds before death.
- Disabling critical hits is changing the fundamental machanics of TF2. It’s resumed by this joke:
Patient: Doctor, it hurts when I do this.
Medic: Stop doing zat.
- Weapon speed, as mentioned before, can be a matter of life and death. Pit a Bonesaw Medic against an Ubersaw Medic and the Bonesaw would win.
- Also, the basic weapons were pretty basic. They had fairly generic stats and The original Medic was uninteresting. Valve had to make interesting unlocks, not stat change sidegrades. Though these unlocks ARE sidegrades.
Your move.
n00bie51 responded on 25 Mar 2009 at 12:13 pm #
You’re right. We really are just playing the same broken record, but I’m going to drill this crap into your head:
-”Crits on purpose”? As opposed when I don’t want to use them intentionally? The disadvantage of having slower swinging speed is freaking trivial and is a pitiful drawback that doesn’t equate to their bonuses. If you’re good with using melee weapons, then you’ll be fine with the unlockables.
-The difference being that you don’t get Critical Hits every time, but the chance to be healed is consistent. Again, OCCASIONAL Critical Hits for something as significant as being to rapidly restore HP provided one has accurate aim? There is no freaking contest.
-Critical Hits are a big part of TF2 and make it different from other shooters, but the game is playable (and dare I say better, in regards to consistency instead of luck and chance) without it.
-That’s my point. Only in one-on-one situations like that would you be better off with the Bone Saw, but being able to build up 25% of your ÜberCharge with a single hit? Dude, that’s nothing. You still swing relatively fast enough to deal sufficient damage. For the fiftieth time, the slightly slower swinging speed is so insignificant that not many players worry (at least, they shouldn’t) about the fact the Über Saw is ever so slightly slower and it still swings pretty damn fast.
-The original Medic was fine. TF2 is the first game I’ve played where being a Medic can be exceptionally fun. The basic weapons were fine they way they were. These unlockables should have been interesting, but they SHOULD be alternative items, not outright replacements. Which they are.
-Your move.
Anonymous responded on 25 Mar 2009 at 2:04 pm #
You pseudo-intellectuals make me laugh, a lot.
Dark Master responded on 25 Mar 2009 at 5:13 pm #
Anony, they have minds, but they arn’t going to get anywhere running into each other.
n00bie51, Teridax, this isn’t going to work in a comments section… try a debate; an organized, prepreparerd, judged debate. Just make sure the judges are unbiast and there is a time/word limit of sorts to present your arguments.
Teridax responded on 25 Mar 2009 at 6:35 pm #
Noobie51, this is getting reaaallllyyyy tiring having the same argument over and over again. I feel like I’m talking to Dory the fish in Finding Nemo. For answers to the comments you just posted, just check my above responses.
If you don’t have any arguments other than the ones I contradicted/proved wrong then don’t post, or simply admit defeat (not that you would). This is a topic on the Sandman and we’re arguing over the Blutsauger. If you don’t like unlocks, don’t use them. If you’re using them then you’re copntradicting yourself. If you’re so fanatical about your unlock hate, just go on a server with unlocks disabled. Also, is Valve thought the unlocks were OP they would have balanced them. But they didn’t. Case closed.
Don’t post any arguments again unless they’re new.
Teridax responded on 25 Mar 2009 at 6:37 pm #
Also Anon, we’re not intellectuals. I’m simply the advocate for unlocks and he’s the one for no unlocks. So we bash each other. Your pretentious condescending attitude makes us all laugh. And point. And jeer.
n00bie51 responded on 26 Mar 2009 at 6:25 am #
Teridax, for “answers” to yours, simply look at mine again. The 20% slower swinging speed is so damn trivial compared to the fact that one can build up an ÜberCharge so much faster. The K.G.B. stills swings relatively fast, as does the Über Saw. It’s unbelievable that you’d place so much significance into them — do you really think the negligible difference matters? That the Über Saw, the Blutsauger, and the K.G.B. are truly balanced alternatives and that players aren’t better off by using them to replace the default weapons? It really is opinion, but to me, that seems absurd.
The reason we’re talking about unlockables is because it touches the core of the Sandman debate as well.
Also, I never said I hated using unlockables — I’m not contradicting myself for using them. I like the Kritzkrieg. I like the Axtinguisher. I like the K.G.B. and Natascha. (I’m going to use them to my advantage if other players are, too, you know, that doesn’t have to affect my opinion on them.) I’ve had my share of fun using them, but in the end I’d rather they not be in the game.
Even if I didn’t use the unlockable weapons, you’re not seriously proposing that as a solution to my own problems, are you? “If you don’t like this weapon, then don’t use it.” That doesn’t stop other players from using it.
Don’t you think I would have considered playing in servers that disabled unlockables if I had such strong opinions about them (and even already proposed Valve enabling such a feature in the console) already? Can you direct me to the IP addresses of any servers that are frequented by many players that disable unlockable content? What tag am I supposed to type in when I search in the browser for a server that doesn’t allow them (it’s not “vanilla,” if you didn’t know)? Even if I did find them, would there be as many servers or as many players frequenting them as there are standard servers that don’t disable unlockables? Yeah, I guess that doesn’t help me, does it?
Finally, Valve isn’t perfect, how much do they know or care about supporting a balanced, skill-based game on the competitive level when they have the majority of pubbers and more casual players to appeal? The case is still open, the problem is Valve probably doesn’t think this is a case to begin with.
Oh, by the way. *Laughs, points, and jeers at silly anonymous commentator.*
Anonymous responded on 26 Mar 2009 at 8:13 am #
I’ll bet you’re real proud you came up with an argument, congratulations
n00bie51 responded on 26 Mar 2009 at 11:54 am #
*Continues to laugh, point, and jeer at silly anonymous commentator.*
Noob.
Anonymous responded on 26 Mar 2009 at 12:12 pm #
And now you’ve devolved to ad hominem attacks. You made a bit more sense when you were prating in huge, senseless paragraphs.
n00bie51 responded on 26 Mar 2009 at 12:24 pm #
Oh, I sincerely apologize for sharing my opinion and caring to elaborate in such depth because I thought it was appropriate for discussion.
Noob.
Himmelstoss responded on 26 Mar 2009 at 12:25 pm #
@n00bie, Anonymous, Teridax:
Please stop. You’re hogging precious bandwidth.
n00bie51 responded on 26 Mar 2009 at 12:28 pm #
I blame the administrators for not checking each others’ stories before they’re published, otherwise supremesonic may not even have posted this article. (:
Teridax responded on 26 Mar 2009 at 6:24 pm #
Well, you know, about three other guys posted the same kind of topic, only it was against the Sandman. Maybe they’re actively trying to tear Ubercharged.net apart from the inside…*cackle*
Himmel’s right, Noobie51. This argument’s going nowhere and you keep putting up the same f***ing stuff you posted three times before. The only reason this topic’s still alive is because of our war, Himmel’s desperate attempts to stop it, and some retard with issues flaming random shit.
No more posting in three, two, one…
n00bie51 responded on 26 Mar 2009 at 10:22 pm #
No, Teridax, this debate is going to have a damn conclusion. No wimping out here, like you’re not posting absurdly refutable logic? Concede, provide a new argument, or let’s move this to the forums, this discussion isn’t going to end.
Dark Master responded on 27 Mar 2009 at 1:46 am #
At thins point I think this article has more comments then any other one on Ubercharged.net…
Teridax responded on 27 Mar 2009 at 2:41 am #
God, you’re being such a prick, Noobie51.
Fine. Move this to the forums so that I can own you more. Happy now? You know repeating refuted arguments in forums is a no-no, don’t you?
Also, Dark Master, you may be right.
n00bie51 responded on 27 Mar 2009 at 6:54 am #
http://www.ubercharged.net/2009/03/18/the-case-for-the-sandman/#comment-20896
n00bie51 responded on 27 Mar 2009 at 8:46 am #
Damn, copy+pasted the wrong link. Here’s the right one:
http://www.ubercharged.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=1302
Himmelstoss responded on 27 Mar 2009 at 10:23 am #
Congrats. Thanks to your flame war, this is indeed the most-commented article on Ubercharged. Stop spamming poor old supremesonic, ok?
n00bie51 responded on 28 Mar 2009 at 11:52 pm #
It wasn’t a flame war, and supremesonic should have seen it coming when he posted the story up on the front page. (:
BJJ Matt responded on 29 Jun 2009 at 6:10 am #
Lashely slapped the beast around last night for sure!