Coffee for my friend, the Spy
I woke up at dawn today, with ideas of designs chasing around in my head. I tried to go back to sleep but instead I had lucid dreams in which I was working at the workshop trying to materialize these blueprints to no avail.
So I gave up and brewed some fresh coffee. It’s always chillingly refreshing to wake up when everyone else is sleeping the sweetest part of their yesterday. Everything is bare, and in focus.
I sipped some coffee and put my mind to work, subtly. I have been thinking about coming up with something useful for Spy’s birthday.
Surprised? I know, technically he is my nemesis, my natural predator. But after so many saps, wrenches and woeful respawns, we came to develop a special bond.
After all, a wise enemy is better than a dumb friend.
What else than an improved version of that old sapper would make a better present, a present that only means something to him and I, a new toy that would lighten up our dull routine of sapping and wrenching?
Behold the Electro Hacker.
I kind of changed the user interface, we will see if turns out to be reliable enough for the task.
Now this is truly in the works, a device that will not exactly disable the unit in question but alter the way it acts.
I’m a modern man. I try to adapt new methods. I have been hearing about open source and collaboration and other stuff them Vikings came up with, so I decided to share my preliminary thoughts with you, and let you have your say on how it will work.
So yeah, here goes.
The Wild Ride Teleporter
When a spy “hacks” a teleporter, the teleporter will mostly likely randomly switch carrier beam frequencies available in the area. The engineer who built the said teleporter will not be alerted to anything, the current teleporter design doesn’t have any protection or warning against frequency jumping since IT IS NOT SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN. And that’s what makes this a good hack, right?
So to you end-users, you will take that teleporter outside your resupply room and <zzam> you end up beaming to a random teleporter exit on the map, including THE OTHER TEAM’S EXITS.
It would be so much fun to beam right into the enemy forward base next to the sentry guns, I think I will add this feature to my own teleports to send annoying “friendlies” to a little pricking end.
Of course it will only take basic communication among team members to locate the hacked teleporter and prompt the engie to destroy and rebuild it.
Dispenser of Sorrow
The dispenser is a complex device however simple it might seem to you. Hacking it will probably reverse its giving function into a taking one, it will deplete health, metal and ammo from its immediate surrounding. Now I am not sure where all that stuff can fit in the dispenser, I reckon a hacked dispenser will go ka-blooey soon after the gauge shows full capacity, laying wreck to the battlefield.
I am not sure if the owner engineer will be alerted or if he will be able to self destruct it. The dispenser is against the laws of thermodynamics, I do not expect it to be in lieu with my humble logical reasoning.
The Renegade
Ah the sentry. Pinnacle of battlefield engineering. The envy and the doom of all. And I mean ALL should fear it. Because hacking it will likely disable its IFF (Identify Friend or Foe, for you illiterate people), and the monster will be set loose on red and blue alike. Imagine the destruction to be sown if this was to go down at a contested cap point.
Definitely has its price, though, the hacking spy will be the first to bite the bullet so this will essentially be his final hack.
And I don’t think it’s possible not to alert the engie while the hack tries to disable the most critical part of his weapon. It will probably go down the old hack/wrench/hack/wrench way before the hack eats through the IFF.
Tell me what you think. Tell me NICELY and the powers that be might just hear you.
Stumble it!
JustAConspiracy responded on 19 Jan 2009 at 4:11 pm #
1. Teleporter idea would be incredibly funny. You do need SOME way of alerting an engineer though. Maybe every time someone takes his teleporter it decreases its health?
Least then the engineer knows something’s up.
2. Heard it, so very many times before. I like the idea though that it would explode after its full. Maybe doing damage to anyone near it?
3. Heard it, more times then the dispenser idea. but for balance’s sake, I’d make it so it still won’t shoot the engineer. Or rather, it does half damage or SOMETHING.
Herpers responded on 19 Jan 2009 at 4:42 pm #
With the sentry it should lose health slowly over time (similar to sentries in ZF) so that a single sentry doesn’t ruin it for everything, also the spah should get kills for everyone killed by these new toys and definitely not the engie. however these tools make it easier to grief, noob engineer builds a sentry in front of the spawn then a spy comes along and the team is now stuck in their spawn because of their own sentry.
Whimsical Goofball responded on 19 Jan 2009 at 4:59 pm #
Woah, those are some fantastic ideas! I’m all up for anything that adds a whole new fun dimension to the game. Whilst not perfect, the concept behind hacking teleporters is easily the coolest new weapon concept I’ve heard of.
Perhaps, though, you can detach the enemy exit and move it physically as an enemy spy? That could mess with people, heh heh.
Nessmk2 responded on 19 Jan 2009 at 5:35 pm #
I think this, while an interesting idea, is really overpowered. Why blow up a sentry when you can make it demolish the entire other team instead? Why sap a dispenser when instead you can make it suck the other team dry and effectively play area-denyal? Why blow up a tele when instead you can make your enimies suicide (usually) by taking it, and then make the engie blow the thing up in the end anyway.
In addition, the hacked teles could hurt your team as much as help. Imagine you place a teleporter someplace beautiful, secret, and RIGHT behind your lines… Then a heavy teleports onto it, blows the exit up, and rapes your team from BEHIND due to YOUR teleporter.
HardQuor responded on 19 Jan 2009 at 7:02 pm #
to Nessmk2, While i agree that these ideas are mostly replacements as opposed to options, I think that the author’s attempt to balance them went over your head. The hacked tele that brings an enemy heavy behind your lines is a desired outcome, introducing an element of chaos to balance the sabotage.
Although unbalanced as they may be, I think that the sabotage theme presented here is very clever and fits right in with the spy’s character. So instead of making the hacked sentry shoot anything that moves, maybe it’s patrol range is increased to a full 360 rotation, or rate of fire dropped a bit, something to make it easier for teammates to destroy. Ideally, the hack wouldn’t alert the engie as effectively as a sapper does. Maybe the audio cue would sound, but the visual cue would be absent, making it difficult to identify.
I personally like that alternative because it encourages spy communication and team play, where I’ve found spies tend to keep to themselves far more than is comfortable (i believe one of the recent articles here touched on this).
For the teleporter, i think it’d be more appropriate if the hack made it take longer to charge, or if it switched the entrance and exit. Something subtle so that it has lasting power, but not quite devastating, only slightly disruptive.
As for the dispenser, that’s a bit more difficult. Instead of reducing ammo or health, then exploding when it reaches capacity, the easy hack would be to make it stop recharging. But that’s a little boring. Maybe if the dispenser was the machine that couldn’t differentiate between friend and foe, that would be something else.
Whatever the actual effects of a hack, i think that as industrious as an engineer has been proven to be, he should be able to repair a hacker as easily as a sapper.
Oh, and I’m in love with the idea of moving engie buildings, kudos to whimsical goofball for coming up with that. I’m intrigued at the discovery players would make as they realize that when they pick up a level 3 sentry, they can only move it so far before being noticed (and for balance’s sake, while moving a building, spies should move at half-heavy-speed), and moving it would only delay the problem, not solve it. I would love to see the inevitable attempt to move a sentry, only to accidentally catch your own teammates off-guard!
Anyhow, why are we talking about this, as opposed to Scout updates?
Ozcar responded on 19 Jan 2009 at 7:09 pm #
Yeah, I agree with Nessmk2. Here’s why, point by point.
1) teleporter: It wouldn’t do any real harm, as I can hardly think of a situation where tele didn’t take you somewhere nearer the fighting. All in all, you’d end up fighting as fast as you did before OR you end up right behind enemy lines. The new strategy of building sentries behind the teles would soon emerge, and, well.. It just wouldn’t work, not like this. Sorry.
2) dispenser: This would make sapping dispensers all too effective. You’d start sapping engie’s sentry and dispenser, and he’d have to chooce whether to repair sentry and lose metal or repair the dispenser and lose sentry. It’s a lose-lose for engie, win-win for the enemy team. This would be no replacement, it would be dispenser-sapper v2.1.
3) sentry: I just don’t like the idea of a suicidal (noobish) spy turning my forward base into an opportunity for the enemy team to rush forward while my team is fighting our frigging own sentry. And any sensible player from the enemy team would not enter the sentry’s FoV (Field of Vision) anyway. No harm done for the enemy team, but the one defending (or attacking) team would be ground to dust. It would ruin the not-so-delicate balance of fighting, if teams cannot even trust their frontline bases any more.
And think of these all combined. Your dispenser is taking away your metal and health, your sentry is firing your own team and a frigging enemy heavy just appeared behind your back by a hacked teleporter. It would just not work, believe me.
{TF2F} ((Cascade responded on 19 Jan 2009 at 8:55 pm #
Just make hacking take 1 second, during which time the spy has to stand near the device holding down the sapper button.
Most sappers are applied on “drive-bys” where the spy wants nothing more than to escape the fizzling sentry and cries of “SPAH SAPPIN MAH SENTRY!” which draw every enemy within 50′ to the site of his crime.
donbanano responded on 19 Jan 2009 at 9:14 pm #
i have to agree with Ozcar.
it is not like the sentries are overpowered.
As we all might know all it takes is either one skilled demoman or an über-ready medic to take out a sentry.
although the changes wouldes would be a good addition to the pwnshop gamplay as class specefic effects.
I would limit the time of the raging sentry though.
it just would be a pain the the arse to have to destroy it
General Goose responded on 20 Jan 2009 at 12:25 am #
A Heavy and Medic charge onto a teleporter.
“Now is coward-killing time!”
“Jawohl!”
The Heavy goes on first, followed by his trusty medic.
As they emerged in a sentry nest with loads of shocked enemies staring at them as the sentries rotated, both thought “This wasn’t what we meant….”
hain responded on 20 Jan 2009 at 12:30 am #
A hacked teleporter will take you a different random exit everytime, I think, so in your story, the heavy will go “Engineer is credit to team” as he pops up in one of the forward friendly bases while the medic is, uh, misplaced.
I did forget to add, the renegade sentry’s rotors and hydraulics will fail quickly as it responds every single living thing out there, so it will break apart after a short bullet frenzy.
I still don’t think friendlies can damage their own sentry though. It’s built into their weapons, after all.
Yeah don’t worry if you don’t understand the specifics of how it works. I do and that’s all you need to know.
GFC responded on 20 Jan 2009 at 1:03 am #
I really love it ! It could be a nice unlock for spy!
Nessmk2 responded on 20 Jan 2009 at 2:56 am #
I’m not saying it’s not a really unique and interesting idea, it’s just that I think it’s very obviously an upgrade rather than a replacement. All of these ideas do what the original do, or something that’s usually better.
Tele) The Engie gets no warning that his tele is hacked, and has to destroy it anyway to get rid of it. So, tele is destroyed anyway. In the meantime, however, the tele is killing members of your team by sending them on exits next to sentries. You get both effects (deaths and blown-up entrance).
Dispenser) Depending on the rate of the drain (The only way I could see this being balanced would be very slowly), you have a device that now stops the enemy team from coming near it. Imagine you replaced it with a pile of 8 stickies. Unless you absolutely NEED to get close for defence, you won’t, and since you can’t attack your own buildings, all you can do is sit and take it until your engie buddy figures out what happened and (Again) blows up his own dispenser.
Sentry) Even if it dies quickly, you have to think about the way a sentry is placed on defence. It’s placed in a way to cover as much of your defensive area as possible. Think final cap, Goldrush, or Dustbowl. One hacked sentry would devistate the other team. Sentries would become far more of a liability than an asset. Then, in the end, the sentry blows up anyway, so you have a dead sentry AND a dead team.
Anonymous responded on 20 Jan 2009 at 3:01 am #
The sentry should be controlled by the hacking spy to shoot at the enemy this would cause chaos plus make the sentry a easier target for attack cause its not computer controlled
Dark Master responded on 20 Jan 2009 at 3:09 am #
First off, the idea of hacking the engi’s equipment is a pretty good one in my opinion. to keep the idea ballanced, I think that any hacked stucture should imidiatly become vulnerable to both teams and engis can no longer demolish them at will.
As far as the specifics of the hacking goes, like Cascade said, it should take a little while before the spy can succussfuly hack the buildings; but I also think that there should be a short delay before the effect actually takes place. The different buildings would also give warning based on different situations.
The teleport going to a random exit might have him say:
“Mah teleports malfunctioning!”
I think the dispenser should simply work for everyone, thus:
“The enemy’s usin mah dispenser!”
And when the sentry stops working properly, maybe essentialy downgrading a level, turning slower, and slowly losing health (much slower then a sapper would):
“Mah sentry’s gone nuts!”
Also, I think that the engineer should be able to get the stuctures back to normal if he gets a chance to wack them, but if neccesary, you team should be able to take drastic measures.
hain responded on 20 Jan 2009 at 3:12 am #
Tele) No the tele might still take you a to a friendly exit or to a yet unguarded enemy forward base being built, so it’s a gamble for both parties.
Disp) You’re right, the hack should cause the dispenser to drain slowly, and so the engie would have a long time to fix it, but only teammates losing health and ammo can notify him. This way a sap is a sure way to take out the dispenser while hacking is a method potentially more damaging but less likely to suceed. But then introducing complicated rules only makes it more confusing for new players to cope with all the action going on.
Sentry) Perhaps hacking should take a long time like, using a medkit in L4D, and this would most likely work only on unattended sentries. This would allow for the traditional sapfest to be more effective both in taking out all the gear and in that it disables the sentry immediately.
Saurous responded on 20 Jan 2009 at 3:27 am #
Heh, neat. The sabotage sapper idea has been thrown around many times, but it is nice to see it elaborated upon.
The teleporter would be fun, plain and simple. However, the engineer should still be able to disable it by wrenching it several times rather than destroying it, since forcing the engineer to destroy it would simply make it an indirect sapper…that sends people on magical trips to Oz.
If the dispenser is fair or not is really dependent upon how quickly it takes supplies away.
The sentry would have some BIG balancing issues. The hack should probably reduce the sentry’s maximum range and power, but not destroy it. If it just destroyed the sentry, it would just be a sapper that makes the sentry flip out and impossible to repair. Just make the hack cause the sentry to flip out for several seconds, and then make it go back to normal.
General Goose responded on 20 Jan 2009 at 3:44 am #
To balance the Sentry idea, I don’t think it should fire on other sentries, and, as mentioned earlier, it should die fairly quickly.
Corodan responded on 20 Jan 2009 at 3:46 am #
As much as I liked these ideas, I still say that it should take much longer to hack than to sap, just like you established, BUT, just like L4D, maybe it should come with it’s own animation?
Atlanta Ned responded on 20 Jan 2009 at 4:16 am #
That first picture is fantastic. Just thought that needed to be said.
Wyatt responded on 20 Jan 2009 at 4:34 am #
Hehe, I love the idea but yeah, a little overpowered. The idea of the devices busting on their own due to the hack stressing them is also brilliant but again, a little overpowered. Why simply destroy gear when the gear will crush the other team then simply destroy itself.
I think the idea has promise, will have to ponder it a bit more to work out the balance. Like the dispenser removes ubercharge or something nuts like that.
LaZodiac responded on 20 Jan 2009 at 5:24 am #
I’m not one to talk, but I think that the three ideas are quite balanced, taking in some ideas from other people.
Though it seems afew people seem to not be relizing the hacked sentry shots at everyone, which would not only keep the owner of the sentry locked down, but the other team out intill it destroys itself.
And yha, the time it takes to hack is probably enough to balance it, but if you must have another negative for the hacker, the cloak drains alittle faster when hacking (it would have to be worked out in play testing, but I think that, with an almost full cloak, you’d run out JUST before you finish hacking)
hain responded on 20 Jan 2009 at 5:43 am #
What? Hacking while cloaked? That’s hax, man. No you should stand out there for a while raising all eyebrows. The engie can whack you very easily, fix the sentry easily. So he better not be around or alive at all.
So first you take the engie out somewhere else and then cloak as the engie and stand next to the sentry, only that would not raise any suspicion.
But then a good pyro always likes to poke his friends with the flamethrower.
When I think of it, perhaps the engie should be able to go back and fix all hacked equipment, but not destroy it.
For the tele the downside is that probably he has to go all the way back to respawn.
No downside for the dispenser and the sentry. He has to be away from his toys for the spy to effectively pull this I think.
And I think the most balanced sentry hack would be the sentry going nuts for, say 10 seconds, and going back to normal instead of blowing up, which would definitely distinguish hack from being a better sap.
Hmm so you cloak as an engie. Sit atop the engineer, hack his sentry under (or over) his nose, and stab him as soon as the hack kicks in so he can’t fix it. And then… you die. A happy end, if you will.
The philoshopy of hack should be -> high risk, high stakes.
SAC responded on 20 Jan 2009 at 6:06 am #
He’d better be able to fixit, since the update that is. Lest we have Level 3 Dispensers and Teleporters needing destruction and more gratuitous expletives than in an average Youtube comments section. =D
Good idea, but we’ll have to wait and see. Valve always goes for the class least played at the moment, so perhaps the Spy update will be next. Or, perhaps they will choose either teh Soldier or Demoman, since they seem to go for my least played classes =( (Medic, Heavy, Pyro, Scout, in that order) [/conspiracy theory]
Anonymous responded on 20 Jan 2009 at 7:38 am #
why do people keep thinking that anything in spys arsenal will change, other than his magnum? just press m and look and you will see that magnum is the only one can be unequipped.
Zorgulon responded on 20 Jan 2009 at 8:01 am #
I love the teleporter idea, and I think the others are quite good too.
Not sure about the Sentry- it would have to be a pretty short time of haywire for it not to ruin everyone’s day.
I like the idea of a high risk with a high payoff, and suppose the Sentry thing could work if implemented well. It would obviously have to be harder to deploy than a Sapper, so for a quick deactivation (sap n’ stab, or a demo rush) you’d still opt for the Sapper.
puRe^ responded on 20 Jan 2009 at 8:47 am #
Imagine that monster on a control point!
Sarda responded on 20 Jan 2009 at 8:54 am #
@anonymous-
Who says Valve can’t change it? Obviously they had no idea exactly what they were going to do when they created that menu.
Anonymous responded on 20 Jan 2009 at 9:14 am #
@Sarda
the reason that is, because his weapons already serve all their functions. a on hit kill from the back, and a engi-pisser-offer
PaperTiger responded on 20 Jan 2009 at 9:35 am #
what, and.. the flamethrower, medigun and sasha DIDN’T?
Nessmk2 responded on 20 Jan 2009 at 10:49 am #
Not in the same way. I mean, how can you do an alternate knife? Make it kill from any direction, or just the front, or make it set people on fire or refil the cloak gauge, or…?
Same thing. The disguise kit can’t really be changed without making both of them stronger, the cloak can’t be changed wihtout it being an improvement or useless.
SAC responded on 20 Jan 2009 at 12:01 pm #
Certainly there are options, albeit maybe ye just can’t think of any at the moment. The flamethrower/backburner is a good example of how one’s weapon can differ. Anyone think of any good way to have done that? Similar with the medigun; you could have said before “How could it heal better?!”
Perhaps an instant uncloak but a short cloak, like in zombie fortress? Or a disguise kit that takes a long time to change (without disguises while cloaking), but allows you to switch weapons and clip through enemies? And I don’t think these are very good ideas in themselves.
Briankealing responded on 20 Jan 2009 at 12:11 pm #
All those are hillarious, the dispenser one would be funny. The sentry would be funny as well, but that would be kind of murder to the spy.
Here’s an interesting spy pic
http://deathcam.blogspot.com/2009/01/caught-on-camera.html
Pigbuster responded on 20 Jan 2009 at 12:29 pm #
The idea I always had for a Spy alt. weapon would be a hacker that makes the sentry go haywire, shooting constantly and randomly in it’s 45? angle of view until destroyed or repaired. It would run out of ammo pretty quick if an engie couldn’t get to it, leaving it totally vulnerable to the enemy.
Eh. Never going to happen, but I can dream, I guess.
smiley responded on 20 Jan 2009 at 1:29 pm #
Why did my name default to Pigbuster…?
Anyway, I think that the sentry one shouldn’t affect the owner of the sentry; as in, the sentry can’t kill the Engineer.
Meh responded on 20 Jan 2009 at 2:16 pm #
I like the teleporter idea but unfortunately if you look under spy weapons the only ones listed is the pistol and the knife.
Jesusmart TM responded on 20 Jan 2009 at 2:28 pm #
Christy, christ!
How do you know that valve can’t change that? Why can’t they just add another button?
Corodan responded on 20 Jan 2009 at 2:31 pm #
I still say, animation.
Kollega responded on 20 Jan 2009 at 4:40 pm #
That idea seems overpowered. I mean,sapper is already an “engineer piss-off device”,and that would be outright replacement rather than alternative.
imPacTedLegend responded on 20 Jan 2009 at 7:25 pm #
I may be the first person to say this but I actually wouldn’t use this if it was released in a hypothetical Spy update; these ideas are simply too conditional or not as useful to the team as a well-timed sapper.
The Wild Ride Teleporter:
A nice joke weapon but can be rendered useless by circumstance.
Say you’re defending the last cap of Gold Rush, you really want a Spy to be sapping the enemy’s teleporters to hamper their flow of reinforcements.
Now, in my experience, its rare for the defending team to make use of teleporters here, which means the attackers have nowhere to go but their own exits.
Unless you have a guard on your exits the first act of any enemy affected by this, after re-orientating themselves, would probably be to destroy your teleporter; do you really want that?
The Dispenser of Sorrow:
While this may not be “unbalanced”, it certain could be unfair in an entertaining way.
Say you’re on fire, as is prone to happen. There are no Medics around and you either don’t think about health packs or there simply aren’t any. So you run to that shining beacon of hope; the dispenser.
And you die.
The problem I see with this is that hacking both the sentry and dispenser would put the Engineer in a position where his sentry is trying to kill him immediately, while his dispenser bleeds his health and metal dry.
Take the risk to save your metal or stop your sentry?
Lastly, the Renegade:
So it takes longer to apply than the sapper but has no real effect unless someone else is around?
What if I happen across a lone sentry in the sewers of 2Fort, although what I would be doing there I have no idea.
If I hack it it’ll kill me and me alone, if I hack the dispenser it affects nobody at present. Truly this is a “Risk vs reward”, weapon as it has no reward if no risk is involved.
While I don’t mind dying, part of my ethos when playing this game, I expect a lot of people would be turned off by a weapon that is essentially guaranteed to kill them in the event that they are lucky enough to use it successfully.
Lastly consider that these alternatives remove the teamwork element from the Spy:
He can’t disable sentries, can’t clear out lone Engineer set-ups and can’t go on sabotage missions while defending.
How can the hacking Spy be credit to team?
LaZodiac responded on 21 Jan 2009 at 4:01 am #
@Impact Legend: If I had to guess, he’s a credit to team by messing with the enemies, distracting them. These weapons would obviously be brought out in situations were there is a sentry nest of some sort, and you want to cause some mayhem before moving in with a Demo Rush.
Especialy if the entire enemy team is in the same general area. The sentry will take them out while your demo shots his sticky grenades, being sure to duck behind cover every so often to avoid being target by the sentry as it mows down the other team, and select individuals from yours that before hand were chosen to be bait.
Detroit Matt responded on 21 Jan 2009 at 8:54 am #
A sentry that when hacked shoots teammates? A dispenser that damages teams instead? Standing motionless in order to sap? Let’s toss in some grenades and give the spy a shotgun, I’ve heard this before.
Sarda responded on 21 Jan 2009 at 1:26 pm #
You may say that there can’t be an alternate knife or disguise kit. That is probably true, but there can be replacement weapons. I read about a garrote somewhere to replace the knife, and actually a disguise kit that can disguise the spy as inanimate objects would be interesting.
Nessmk2 responded on 22 Jan 2009 at 4:27 am #
I think a garrote would have to be very carefully balanced. Backstabs are very powerful as-is, and if there’s a way to backstab without un-disguising/uncloaking… well… That’d be broken. At the same time, the only way I could think to remedy that would be a big ‘cooldown’ timer, or some sort of delay to prevent a spy from disguise-killing everyone on the other team.
The disguise kit alternative would be interesting, but, for the most part, after a few runthroughs of a map you know where all the random items are lying about, and unless they randomized where they were (In my opinion, too much trouble and could possibly make maps too easy/hard depending on where the ‘cover’ lands) a ‘disguised’ spy would stick out like a sore thumb. Imagine seeing a box somewhere in the middle of 2-fort, or even in some corner of Badwater where you know there’s no box. Klaxons go off “SPY!”
Borg184 responded on 23 Jan 2009 at 12:07 pm #
Very awesome ideas. I like the tele idea.
Valve Games Coming to Apple Mac OS X! (Teaser Gallery) | Obama Pacman responded on 05 Mar 2010 at 5:02 am #
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