Survival Guide: Demoman
The Demoman is probably the most versatile class in Team Fortress 2. Maybe that’s one of the reasons whiners think he’s overpowered. QQ.
He’s not. You know what – demomen die. I wouldn’t say it’s especially fun to die. But maybe I can help you die less and dominate more when you’re playing as demoman.
Keep your distance
This is the golden rule of playing demoman. It’s important to stay a short distance from the enemy. If you get into the thick of the action, you’ll get burned to a crisp, get pumped full of lead, or be gibbed by your own grenades. However you look at it, you’ll die. For the sake of survival, you need to watch your surroundings and stay away from the enemy.
The demoman’s destructive potential is greatest between the ranges of 5 and 15 metres. Between those ranges, you are close enough to do damage but far enough to stay out of the range of a pyro’s flamethrower. In addition, keeping a distance gives you the option of retreat.
With that said, one of the reasons for the demoman’s versatility is the multitude of playstyles available to him; however, it is important to make use of all three weapons however you decide to play the class.
The first part of this guide will talk about the use of the demoman’s three main weapons; the second part will discuss how to survive against the demoman’s two main counterclasses: the scout and the pyro.
Grenade Launcher
It’s more than just important. This is your main weapon. You need to use it whenever you are faced with a direct threat. However, the grenade launcher is excellent for both direct and indirect combat.
Direct Combat with the Grenade Launcher
Using the grenade launcher for direct combat is tricky, but probably the most rewarding playstyle. The grenade launcher is essentially a rocket launcher with projectile arc. At close range, the projectile arc really isn’t too much of a problem; you’ll probably not have to consider it when deciding where to aim. The catch is that you have to get a direct hit for the grenade launcher to be of any use. With the soldier’s rockets, you can just aim at their feet and the splash damage should take care of the rest. Not so with the grenades.
Put simply, aim where your enemy will be in a second. It’s easier said than done, but it’ll come to you naturally with a little bit of practice. The easiest way to do that: play demoman but don’t use any stickies (unless you’re going for sentries). The grenade launcher is a tremendously capable and immensely powerful weapon, and it’s perfectly possible to dominate using grenades alone.
BEWARE: Fighting pyros with grenades can be risky. The second part of this guide discusses it in depth.
Indirect Combat with the Grenade Launcher
It’s perhaps a tad bit easier to use ‘nades for indirect combat, though your options here are far more limited. Indirect combat essentially means firing grenades into a general area, hoping that one will explode and destroy/kill something/someone. Grenades are very useful for destroying sentry nests when you’re out of range or sight of the sentries; they’re also very effective ways of clearing out forward bases and sniper nests.
Sticky Bomb Launcher
Ah, the infamous sticky bomb launcher. This is the weapon that has all the noobs whining. Stickies and grenades are, to some degree, interchangeable. However, it’s important to use the sticky launcher as your secondary weapon. A successful kill with a sticky isn’t half as satisfying as one with a grenade or with the bottle of scrumpy. In any case, the grenade launcher is a more powerful weapon that will probably net you more kills. It’s advisable to avoid using the stickies for direct combat if you can avoid it – i.e. if your grenade launcher isn’t out of ammo. The sticky bomb launcher is an indirect-combat weapon at heart, and you’ll probably be better off if you can use it as such.
Indirect combat with the Sticky Bomb Launcher
The Sticky launcher is the undisputed king of indirect combat. The two best uses are traps and sentry destruction.
Setting a trap is as simple as hiding a sticky bomb where the enemy cannot see it, then detonating it as soon as enemies come through. It’s great for sealing chokepoints, stopping intel carriers in their tracks, and gibbing an entire payload cart escort at once. Stickies are meant for traps, and it’s probably the best way to use it. As long as you don’t leave stickies out in the open where they can be easily seen and shot, the sticky launcher will serve you well.
Stickies are great for sentry removal, too. From a safe location where a sentry cannot see you (or simply during an ubercharge rampage), fire between 3 to 5 stickies toward the sentry and detonate. For reference, it takes around four stickies to destroy a level 3 sentry; it’ll need more if your stickies don’t land close to the sentry. Anyway, using it for sentry removal is a pretty basic tactic, I trust you know how to do it.
Direct Combat with the Sticky Bomb Launcher
You know how this works. Left click, then right click. Give the whiners something to munch on and have some fun doing so. But using the stickies as your primary often decreases your survival time. Consider the following scenario.
You have been using stickies as your primary for a while, and you don’t have any stickies left in the chamber. You start to reload, then notice a pyro barrelling toward you. You have a few options now: either continue reloading the sticky launcher or pull out your grenades. You fire the grenades but, being much more fickle with regard to aim, they all miss. Now you’re screwed.
OK, OK. This can happen even if you use grenades primarily and only occasionally bust out the sticky launcher. But it’s a lot less likely. It’s a lot easier to miss with grenades than it is with stickies. As a result, try to save up some stickies as a last-ditch survival measure where you want to deal as much damage as possible, even if it means your death. Put another way, grenade aim is more fickle than that of the sticky launcher. In a matter of life-or-death, you need reliability from your weapons. The grenade launcher is a great weapon when you’re taking the fight to the enemy – but don’t count on it to keep you alive. Hopefully you could follow my logic there; apologies if it was a tad convoluted.
Sticky Jump
Rocket jumps have nothing on the sticky jump. You probably know how it works. However, if you’re looking to maximize the distance of the jump, make sure that you jump, then tap crouch when you detonate. It’ll give you a lot more distance – but at the same time, will take out a lot more of your health. Sticky jumps can be excellent ways to escape an unfavorable situation, get to the front line quickly, or just confuse the enemy. An excellent tactic, I’ve found, is to sticky jump over the enemy line and rain down stickies from above. Once you land on the other side, blow the stickies, pull out your grenade launcher, and get ready to fight! It’s a very powerful technique. If you can get overhealed before jumping, you’ll be in fighting shape when you land. Sticky jumps are generally not as versatile as rocket jumps, but they’re an extremely useful technique in the demoman’s arsenal. Find some good ways to use them, and use them!
Bottle
Look at it. It’s your bottle of scrumpy. It’s the fiery beverage that gives a demoman his fighting spirit.
LOLWUT? The bottle? Actually, it’s a very useful weapon, but only as a last-ditch option or as a method of instant embarassment! It’s a lot of fun to use. If you are certain that an enemy is at low health (for instance, if you just fired three grenades at a heavy without the heavy dying), get up close and let them taste some broken glass! Killing with the bottle is extremely satisfying. The often overlooked weapon will probably get you out of more than one tight situation. If you ever find yourself in a close-quarters battle with low health, bust out the bottle and hope for the best. You may get lucky.
Pyro Strategies
Don't get yourself into that situation.
The pyro is one of the demoman’s counterclasses, and he (or it she?) makes a worthy opponent. There are some strategies (and caveats) to fighting pyros, though.
If the pyro you’re fighting has any sense at all, he’ll reflect your grenades. However, seeing as the majority of pyros charge you (or don’t have the regular flamethrower equipped), you’ll probably not have too much trouble fighting them with your grenades. It’s just important to keep your distance. It may help to move erratically, too. Besides keeping you out of the maws of the flame, the extra distance and the erratic movement might help you dodge reflected grenades. You never know, and it’s best not to take a chance.
With that said, pyros move faster than you. Kill the pyro – and quickly – or you’ll die.
The sticky bomb launcher can be a good option when fighting pyros. If the pyro you’re fighting is right in front of you, drop a sticky at your feet and detonate it, then hope for the best. If the pyro’s a little distance in front of you, try dropping a sticky at his feet – but ahead of him! With luck, you’ll either blast the pyro backward or straight up in the air (where it’s easy enough to finish him off with a grenade or another sticky). If your timing is off, you’ll blast the pyro into your face. Oops.
If the pyro’s in your face and you’re out of ammo, pull out the bottle. Maybe you’ll live, but chances are, you’ll end up burnt toast (like the poor demoman above).
Scout Strategies
If the scout’s double-jumping erratically, ditch the grenade launcher. Unless you’re extremely skilled, you’re not going to hit ‘im. On the other hand, if the scout’s moving in a straight line or a predictable fashion, you should be able to score with a grenade.
If you do get caught in a one-on-one battle with an erratically moving scout, make for a walled area. You will not kill the scout out in the open, but you have a much better chance if there are walls nearby. Lay sticky mines on nearby walls and other such surfaces and detonate when you see fit. If all else fails, pull out the bottle. Maybe you’ll get a crit, maybe the scout has 10 HP left.
But just have fun!
The demoman is an awesome class, and mastery of his playstyles will serve you well. Relish your victories and learn from your deaths – but just have fun. Hopefully you learned something from this 1836-word guide – now go out there and show it to some folks! Happy gibbing!
himmelstoss on January 12th 2009 in demoman, how to, pyro, rants, scout, tactics, team fortress 2
Stumble it!
Sypheros responded on 12 Jan 2009 at 1:10 pm #
The Demoman is one of my least played classes, but I really enjoy playing him. I just like Spy/Soldier/Engineer more. To me a good Demoman is to be feared, they can control two areas at once, one with stickies and the other with pipes. A very good class, and simple to start off with (seriously I have had like 3 people start playing with demo, and had instant progress).
Good guide, really is the basics, but then again the demoman is very basic, he really is all about timing
Coded One responded on 12 Jan 2009 at 1:46 pm #
Demoman is just a soldier with twice the rounds in a clip and ability to detonate in midair. When will valve finally nerf the Demoman PROPERLY and make his stickies only detonate when stuck to a surface?
I hate Demomen.
Himmelstoss responded on 12 Jan 2009 at 2:16 pm #
Lurk moar, Coded One. If you really hate demomen, try 1. playing demoman – and learn to respect the class (or watch yourself fail trying), 2. going the other route – playing pyro and reflecting them darn stickies back. Pyros and scouts absolutely have the upper hand against demomen – if you really hate demomen, try playing one of his counterclasses. Besides, no one bitches about the fact that a sniper rifle can one-shot anyone or that a backstab is an instant kill, right? Seriously, shame on you whiners.
In any case, if there has to be another nerf, I’d go with the nerf you suggested, because it would make no difference to the playstyle of most demomen. Most of the time, demomen shoot stickies at the ground or walls. The demoman class has been nerfed so many times it’s laughable (first with the reserve ammo reduction, then again with the airblast upgrade, and most recently with the ability to shoot stickies).
Zrakt responded on 12 Jan 2009 at 3:26 pm #
pyro and scout are as far as i know ambushclasses and not for direct combat. you also could call spies a counterclass for demos if you put it that way …
Gufu responded on 12 Jan 2009 at 3:47 pm #
Here I stand, dead by a crit from a demoman.
Oh well, he is my griefing class. ^_^
imPacTedLegend responded on 12 Jan 2009 at 7:17 pm #
“Besides, no one bitches about the fact that a sniper rifle can one-shot anyone or that a backstab is an instant kill, right?”
You really don’t check out the TF2 Steam forums often do you Himmel?
General Goose responded on 12 Jan 2009 at 7:27 pm #
You forgot the reason many demos die: alcohol poisoning. And drinking from broken bottles.
GHOAT - Action Man responded on 12 Jan 2009 at 9:29 pm #
Fool.
“Actually, it’s a very useful weapon, but only as a last-ditch option or as a method of instant embarassment!”
Should’ve stopped: “Actually, it’s a very useful weapon”
Last ditch my arse…
Did you not notice that the other weapons have splash damage?
“If you ever find yourself in a close-quarters battle with low health, bust out the bottle”
NO!
“If you ever find yourself in a close-quarters battle, bust out the bottle”
Demo’s (especially with g-launcher) can fecking total themselves at close range. Use the bloody bottle without question, if you’re engaging an enemy at close range with a g-launcher, you’re an eejit.. Same for soldier and spade.
Melee weapons don’t need reloading. They do good damage (the bottle does more avg. dmg. per hit than the pipe bomb launcher) and melee weapons will crit a lot more often.
You are basically a idiot if you ignore melee weapons, or advocate their use in “last ditch” attempts when clearly melee is always viable when the range has been closed by either you or your assailant.
FunkyB responded on 12 Jan 2009 at 9:53 pm #
@GHOAT – Action Man:
I agree, but I think that the writer was just trying to emphasise that you should be doing everything you can to avoid being in melee range in the first place. So if you are close and have to melee, that it is ‘last ditch’ because you did something wrong to be in this situation.
Maybe, i’m sure Himmel can clarify.
sam responded on 12 Jan 2009 at 10:49 pm #
Yeah, getting kills from the nade launcher is extremely satisfying, especially when a scout double jumps in a straight line and you skillfully (or spammingly) shoot a nade in his path… mmmmmmm
ultra responded on 12 Jan 2009 at 10:49 pm #
Ghoat:
How much damage does a bottle hit do?
How much does a direct pipe do?
Yeah. More than the bottle. And good luck killing anything with any kind of brain with the bottle. Most people will press “s”.
Unless you rely on crits.
SAC responded on 12 Jan 2009 at 11:53 pm #
They should call you whiners, Dr. NOooooooOOOoOOO!
Here’s my easy strategy that no one else has figured for most any class chasing you; turn around and flee. Leave stickies in the path. If you have any good timing, you’ll at the very least damage the person if not kill outright. The reason W is greater than S here is because you can see where you’re going and are much less likely to run into a wall.
The only exception is with pyros. In my experience, the vast majority of them equip the backburner for who knows what reason. Regardless, if they catch your back, you’ll probably get critted to death, and I’m not wasting my precious half to one second checking what they have equipped. Keep your face to them and do the same, although I usually head for a narrow corridor to pump nades in their faces, if I haven’t already started. :S
And actually, I agree with GHOAT (though not with the tone of his, erm, voice); melee weapons are underused, save the wrench, ubersaw, and knife. I’ve got the most kills with 3 different melee weapons where I come from. Take the following situation. Pyro is fighting his way to your snipers nest (say you’re the only one there). Gets damaged on the way. Don’t fear him, go through the fire and flames. Since he’s already fought your teammates, he can’t have much health left to withstand the average 60 damage swing. And guess how high up the crit percentage list it is.
hain responded on 13 Jan 2009 at 12:14 am #
I threw most of my past year playing the pyro so I would like to come in from the pyro’s point of view.
I hate demomen. I’d like to believe I’m a good pyro but it’s not always easy to burn down a demoman alone. You have the nades thrown in your path, or the stickies laid before you, and if you survive it, there comes the bottle. I guess it’s a battle of who keeps his cool longer and not starts moving around erratically.
By the way I like these guides. It’s mostly common knowledge yet I have to have it rubbed in my face to start shooting grenades in people’s path instead of trying to using it like a sniper rifle. Yeah I know. I have been a bad demoman but thanks tou Himmel’s article I enjoyed myself playing a bit demoman last night. Naughty!
And don’t get me started with the air blast being a demo counter, or counter to any class. It’s a novelty item only useful in the hands of the most skilled. And it is an obscure skill. It only pushed the sticked a puny bit, can’t blow back nades as fast as the demoman can spam them, and really you can’t start flaming for a few seconds after the blast, which leaves you vulnerable.
I’m a backburner and I’m after your back, you Francis.
Oh yeah the blast blows away ubers very nicely. Anyway this is not the airblast discussion.
Corodan responded on 13 Jan 2009 at 12:44 am #
Airblast Flamethrower, imo, is much better than the Backburner.
Anyways, I kind of feel that, secretly, this is a rant, since I KNOW you get ticked off when someone use’s stickies for regular Combat. Lol. I remember getting you doing that…
Very good tut, very short ‘n’ simple and clean. Lobbing a critnade over an obstruction and hearing the twinge is incredibly satisfying.
Notger responded on 13 Jan 2009 at 1:35 am #
I love the common sense in this forum (except for the usual why-can’t-I-kill-everyone-else-whiner).
If Demomen were so overpowered, why do they very rarely come out on top of scoreboards in clan matches?
Why do soldiers (unless they are crappy) usually win 1on1 matches against Demoman?
Go back, whiner, to your CSS-world. TF2 has class-balance and you can’t pwn everyone over here. You have to cooperate (check the dictionary, in case that word isn’t familiar to you).
Being a demo-player by heart, I totally agree to your post, Himmelstoss. Good points.
Though, there is one thing that I would like to correct: If you can keep your distance and are sure not to be ambushed, always use the sticky launcher. Mid-air detonation of them is as close as you can get to the soldiers rocket launcher.
Sure, a direct nade hit is nice, but rather difficult against someone who has ever heard something about movement.
GHOAT - Action Man responded on 13 Jan 2009 at 1:53 am #
Ultra.
You make me laugh.
“How much does a direct pipe do? Yeah. More than the bottle.”
What you’re telling me here is you blow yourslef up. Regularly. Instead of switching to melee…
“And good luck killing anything with any kind of brain with the bottle. Most people will press “s””
…and likely run into a wall.
And if they didn’t, then they’ve brought themselves back into effective g-launcher range.
That’s not based on experience however as most people, and I think I’m gonna include you in this, will let you bottle them happily.
“Unless you rely on crits.”
Why wouldn’t you? Melee weapons are reliable critters.
You say people run, but my main experience with melee killing comes from Soldier.
The second slowest class.
It’s far easier to switch to spade and kill than reload rockets. (or clearly shotgun for medium ranges, because you clearly need things like this spelled out)
Zrakt responded on 13 Jan 2009 at 2:41 am #
so many Demofanboys and bad advices …
Zorgulon responded on 13 Jan 2009 at 3:23 am #
Nice tutorial. The Demoman was my bread-and-butter back on the 360, but since I relocated to the PC, he’s taken a back seat.
I don’t think the Demoman is hugely overpowered like the Dr Noooooooos do, but I do object to the direct combat with the stickies. That’s never what the weapon was intended to do, and feels cheap, even when I do it myself. Too many times as a Medic, I’ve been caught in the splash of a crit sticky detonated near my heal target.
Other than that, you might have inspired me to take up Demoman again. At least once I’ve got better at the Scout.
Furious Badger responded on 13 Jan 2009 at 4:12 am #
I think the main reason people think the demo is “overpowered” is that the demo has a very clear intent and capability to attack indirectly. Or, to put it more simply, they can shoot you when you can’t shoot them. The only other classes that even approach this are the medic, with their VERY slight arc to their needles, which is almost impossible to find a place to use effectively, and the engineer with their sentries, but you at least have a direct-fire relationship to the sentry, and the spy, who can stealth so you can’t see him, but can still be shot while stealthed and also has to close to melee typically.
The demo, on the other hand, is launching bombs over walls, bouncing them off corners, leaving stickies in choke points, etc. He can easily kill you without you ever seeing him, or anything besides his bullets, and while retaining full mobility. And THAT, in my opinion, is why people whine about how OP he is.
Dark Master responded on 13 Jan 2009 at 4:28 am #
Furious Badger, that may be the case, but the demoman is not the king killing people when they have no chance to fight back, that is the sniper. Demos have to be watching to kill people with their stickies if they’ve layed a trap, or they have to get lucky with the grenade launcher. However, because both classes can instantly kill people without them having a chance to fight back is probobly why people tend not to like those classes.
Mickyan responded on 13 Jan 2009 at 4:44 am #
“Indirect combat essentially means firing grenades into a general area, hoping that one will explode and destroy/kill something/someone”
sums pretty much the only real demoman tactic
BathrobeAssassin responded on 13 Jan 2009 at 4:59 am #
It takes only a an hour to learn the Soldier, after all, he is a simple ‘everyman’ class much like the Heavy.
It actually takes time to learn how to play the Demoman, who is more suited for truely skilled players. He can defend a passage singlehandedly, or push through an enemy line with well placed stickies and pipebombs.
tl;dr Demoman >>>>> You
SAC responded on 13 Jan 2009 at 6:23 am #
@hain:
Airblast > Tiny crit hitbox. =D Sure, it takes great timing and location, but man, have you ever reflected a Soldier’s crocket or a Demoman’s crenade back at them, or, my goodness, THEIR teammates? It is soooo satisfying…
Right Furiousbadger is right.
@Mickyan:
If someone has any sense, and sees nades coming in, the first thing on their mind would be to run to a different spot. And you’d have to know where the groups are or you’re not getting any kills, save one if you’re lucky. Or perhaps my experience is different because I mainly play custom maps. I dunno. Someone come up with an excuse? XD
Thing is, Demoman has one of my highest “Kill/Death” ratios, but my 3rd lowest “Most Points” class. Would be lowest if it weren’t for Medic (which I rarely play) and Spy (also a high success/death ratio but a low most points count).
Devenger responded on 13 Jan 2009 at 6:41 am #
The reason the demoman is viewed as overpowered by the majority of players in because, despite there being a steep learning curve (especially for adaptive direct stickybomb play, which accounts for many demomen), the reward seems disproportionate when you get to the top – you can control battles too well, having a strategy against every other class. I’d go as far as saying Demoman has no ‘counter’ in terms of killing him, only in reducing his ability to move forwards.
Anyone who experienced my responses to a couple of Medic-whines a month ago knows I’m going to play the role of Soldier in this argument – he’s my 200 hour class, I have a personal stake in the wellbeing of that helmet-blinded shovel-wielding maniac. Right now, he has a tough time against demomen, because without rocketjumps (which damage him) he’s easy to outpredict and outplay, no matter what he does. Combine enormous stickybomb radius (or the quick speed of grenade fire) against the Soldier’s lumbering 80% move speed, and the Soldier’s got no control over how often he’s getting hit by explosives from a competent player. (The shotgun’s damage output is low enough at the Demoman’s selected range to be not worth the attempt.) The Demoman, on the other hand, has a 93% move speed, considerably more ammo available for the firefight, and a greater damage output per second when he gets consistent hits (which he can). The Soldier can aggress the Demoman using a forwards or upwards rocketjump – in the spur of the moment and on unselected terrain, as advanced a technique as using direct stickybombs – but the Demoman can run fast away once things get close, stickytrap where the Soldier might land, hit the Soldier with a grenade in midair (nearly an instant kill)… the list goes on.
I find the Demoman’s arsenal interesting to play against. All I think the Soldier needs to have an equal playing field (or, equal enough) is the Demoman’s speed to be reduced to the Soldier’s level, or close. With the only other explosive/enemy movement controller than the Demoman languishing at only a little faster than our friendly Russian man-tank, the Demoman was always going to have an easy time of the battles – maybe those grenades and bombs should weigh him down somewhat?
Detroit Matt responded on 13 Jan 2009 at 7:22 am #
Want to know why noone complains about the knife or the rifle (outside of facestabs)? It’s because you can’t spam a sniper rifle, and you have to be sneaky to backstab (generally).
But you can ABSOLUTELY spam BOTH types of grenades (I think it’s called “Grenade Lancher Strategy #2″ in your guide).
You’re a good Demo, Himmel. But you seem to overestimate the ease of killing one. Not just ANY Pyro can kill one. Unless you sneak up on him, you blow up. Scout? If there’s just you, the scout can be dangerous. Otherwise, you just chuckle while you and your buddy reload. If you could fight yourself Himmel, you’d hate demomen too.
Psssh responded on 13 Jan 2009 at 7:53 am #
Learning curve? You stick stickies in places you don’t want the bad men to go and launch nades where you think they’re gonna go. How fucking hard is that? Also snipers have to be charged somewhat to one shot most classes and fully charged to kill an overhealed heavy also you do need to aim unlike demoman where 2 stickies kill most of everything 3 if you want to be safe which will take all of 2- 3 seconds to lay. Also the demoman can instagib groups of people and is the only class that can do that. All of that being said demoman is my least used class and I have 112 points in one life. Anywho if they can make the demoman more about planning than about spamming I think everyone will be happy.
Himmelstoss responded on 13 Jan 2009 at 8:21 am #
@Psssh: >>>>>All of that being said demoman is my least used class and I have 112 points in one life<<<<< – I think you’ve been hitting up the achievement servers too much. Also, if you really do plan traps instead of spam stickies, your effectiveness will go up at least twofold. Take it from me. It works.
@All the bottle people: Yes, I agree that it actually isn’t a total last-ditch weapon. I love busting it out and using it (or trying to, and failing – I’m a little bottle happy, and I pay for it a lot).
@Detroit Matt: For a pyro to kill a demoman, all the pyro needs to do is airblast. It’s incredibly hard to fight a good airblasting pyro, especially if the pyro blasts me into a wall. I’m doomed if that happens.
@Devenger: Soldiers can be pretty tough opponents, actually. If the soldier manages to blast the demoman into the air somehow, the demoman is finished in ~95% of cases. Also, demomen have nothing on soldiers when fighting on open ground. As for the mobility argument, soldiers have the rocket jump, which gives them a surprising degree of mobility and tactical advantage. Demomen can’t use sticky jumps for tactical advantage, usually, because they take off a lot more health (and as such the demoman doesn’t have as much disposable health as the Soldier).
This is not my real name responded on 13 Jan 2009 at 8:35 am #
Ah, finally an article that doesen’t whine about the demoman..
He certainly is a very fun class to play, but, the truth be said, it removes fun from the other players when you use the “n00b” demo playsyle (and, unfortynately, this playstyle works fine).
You know what l am talking about.
Use ONLY the stickies, spawn camp with some other demo, be a jerk.
I hate this demomen because they play the class in the wrong way…much like w+m1 pyros..
I am a reasonably good demo, and l have to say, I agree totally with like 90% of the stuff you said.
But to hit a scout in mid-air, it’s not hard at all..I have mostly problems with heavies because you don’t have the time to gib them when they spump in front of you..
Oh, and the bottle should not be overlooked..it’s absolutely the best wepon you could use to sneak up on a sniper, or when your ealth is below 50…
A cool tactic is the sticky kruber…just try it.
You’ll get at least 5-6 kills.
Very nice article.
n00bie51 responded on 13 Jan 2009 at 9:11 am #
Himmelstoss, I still find it amusing that in a forum thread you once strongly disagreed with me on the issue of sticky spamming; I stated the problems that laid within sticky spam and you contradicted me with some rather weak points. “YOU KNOW WHAT JUST STOP COMPLAINING AND LIVE WITH THE GAME.”
Now you’ve totally changed since then, and that’s good.
I don’t mean to open up old wounds, but if anybody wishes to read some lulz: http://www.ubercharged.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=205&p=2
I’ve got some opinions of my own to express on this topic, but I don’t feel like expresserizing them atm.
Himmelstoss responded on 13 Jan 2009 at 9:57 am #
@n00bie: Hehehe, true, that. I had a bad day that day, so I was a little bit more vocal than usual.. but yeah. I have changed my playstyle entirely since then. Nowadays, I use ‘nades most of the time with stickies as a last resort (or for traps). Sticky spam is still effective, but it’s not as good as grenade mastery. (plus, it isn’t very fun). Stickies *are* still an indispensable part of the demoman arsenal, so I wouldn’t say I was all wrong. You *can* still play demoman that way, but you won’t be as effective. Eh.
With regard to a sticky nerf, though: a short charge-up time might be in order, but to balance it out (not make it a true nerf – rather deter sticky spam whilst catering to the interests of trap-setting demomen), maybe it should charge from a point slightly weaker than the current sticky to a point slightly stronger. Just my two cents, but I think it would encourage smarter play without removing any destructive potential.
Wyatt responded on 13 Jan 2009 at 9:58 am #
The Demoman is the most utility class in the game period. I love playing Demo.
Having said that the Demo is Spy candy just like Sniper, Engi and Medic. I’m drawn to Sentry guns like a magnet most times but when I see a Demo that is controlling a huge area of the playfield with grenades and stickies its almost mandatory to backstab that sucka. And most Demos stalk back and forth spamming so yes, I don’t find them overpowered at all.
I think most people do because the Demo unlike other classes can wipe an entire team with a well placed sticky trap. The times I do hate a Demo is when 3-4 people have picked him and I see a neverending stream of grenade spam hurling from over an obstacle (Toy Fort middle point). I try not to whine in game but I’m thinking, “C’mon guys, quit being lazy and play.” Ah well, lazy Demo’s is just one more obstacle to overcome.
Good article, keep em comin’.
puRe^ aka Lolz responded on 13 Jan 2009 at 10:05 am #
@ bathrobeassassin
Theres this guy on tf2 how has taken the soldier to a whole new level, he’s called dubre, and he pwns. I can’t be botheres to say any more but if usually plays on dm_duel_v1 check it out, he’s an admin
Pyrit responded on 13 Jan 2009 at 10:12 am #
I think direct combat is fine with stickies, as long as it’s not the only thing the Demo uses. Sometimes if I want to be sneaky I’ll place a few stickies at a Heavies’ feet and detonate them before he notices. It does get to me, however, the Demos who strictly never use anything but stickies. Even if they run out of ammo/need to reload, they’d rather use the bottle over the grenade launcher or nothing at all.
People are still getting used to destroying stickies. I still see people trying to walk around obvious stickies rather than shooting them. Once people get used to that, tactics may change a little.
DiE.Hellz responded on 13 Jan 2009 at 11:30 am #
loveit
http://vimeo.com/2788907
SAC responded on 13 Jan 2009 at 12:18 pm #
@Devenger:
“… but the Demoman can…, hit the Soldier with a grenade in midair…”
*slaps head
“(nearly an instant kill)…”
*slaps head again.
@Psssh:
Alright then, since that’s so easy, YOU give it a go, eh? I’ve had snipers headshot me within 0.3 seconds of seeing my 10 foot tall head, and heavies demolish you in 0.5-3 seconds depending on range, so I don’t think the “accurate” 2-3 seconds is all that short.
@Wyatt:
Totally! That’s the same reason we get people whining about Pyros and Crockets. (Heavies not so much, because if you have any sense, you will run when you see a heavy with his gun spinned up)
Let’s all (especially the whiners) look at stats from Valve, shall we? [http://www.steampowered.com/status/tf2/tf2_stats.php]
- Avg Points per hour – Demoman – 6th (although the top 7 are pretty close)
- Avg Kills per hour – Demoman – 3rd (okay, I can understand, but explain the heavy and pyro still being in front)
- Avg assists per hour – Demoman – 7th (not much surprise there)
- Damage dealt – Pipe and Stickies – 5th and 4th (high, but explain rockets, minigun, and flamethrower and their big difference from pipes and stickies, and remember to look MAINLY at primary attack weapons. Don’t complain about the number of melee weapons that are below it)
- Avg damage per hit – Sticky and nade – 4th and 10th (no comment)
Dang, should have some more. Anyway, point being, the Demoman is hardly a kill all in his way class, in many senses, if you’re arguing that.
SAC responded on 13 Jan 2009 at 12:21 pm #
Oh yes, did anyone else realize he already got nerfed four times?
Corodan responded on 13 Jan 2009 at 12:39 pm #
I got an idea.
To make the whiners shut up, and leave the game, we IMPROVE, the Demoman.
Take away some of those nerfs, mmhmm.
n00bie51 responded on 13 Jan 2009 at 12:41 pm #
Himmelstoss, I never said you were all wrong to begin with. And you deleted your post, too.
Obviously using stickies as a primary is effective, that was my freaking point; it shouldn’t be.
Ledundead responded on 13 Jan 2009 at 12:59 pm #
I think the Demoman is a cool guy. eh spams the stickys and doesn’t afraid of anything.
Imagine playing against a demo with no nerfs. Welcome to the Xbox 360, or, hell.
ultra responded on 13 Jan 2009 at 2:03 pm #
Ghoat.
They have guns too.
You said that if they get close to pull out the bottle. That does what, 70 damage?
vs Pyro: Fire -> airblast -> axestinguish. Glhf killing a pyro.
vs Scout: -> Have a meatshot. 100+ damage a shot at the same speed or faster, and they can jump out of your range.
vs Soldier: Yeah, ok. Have fun while he reloads one rocket and kills you while you try to bottle him.
vs Another Demo: He’ll pipe you, you’ll both die. That is, unless you don’t hit him.
vs Spy: Whatever, might get facestabbed. Or they can be intelligent and flee with the revolver while you fail with the bottle.
vs Sniper: Meh, you’ll probably win unless they hit first.
vs Heavy: Hahaha, good luck. They have more health and hit harder.
Vs Engie: I prefer the wrench to the bottle, but its pretty much an even match.
vs Medic: Go ahead, give them uber.
Sorry, but the bottle will not win without a crit. You can try, but it wont work. It is slow, no range, and not a lot of damage compared to the other weapons.
Pipes can one shot 3/9 classes, why wouldn’t you take the self damage for 30+ extra damage? Just jump. It reduces the damage you take. The bottle is good in situations where you are out of ammo and the enemy is weak, or else you just wont win.
The only melee weapon I suggest using regularly is the knife, and maybe to kukri.
And why don’t I rely on crits? Because half of the people who play this game prefer to play without them. Crits are lucky. You can’t technically rely on crits. You can hope for them, but you can’t be guaranteed that you will get them.
By the way, using the Grenade Launcher at short range does not mean OMFG IM GONNA BLOW MYSELF UP. It means you will have a higher chance of hitting and doing 90+ damage, and you won’t have the switch delay when they do back up. Which they will.
Who do you play with? Retarded monkeys? Most people know that when someone pulls out melee, back the fuck up. Most people won’t just walk into a wall and stop. Unless they haven’t played much.
L2Demoman.
Psssh responded on 13 Jan 2009 at 8:03 pm #
My main complaint about the demoman is the same complaint I have about the heavy. Both classes are supposed to be used for defense but are mainly used for offense. All I want from valve is to make it so teams are forced to have engineers because no other classes are as good at defending.
Ps. People who go on achievement servers only make the game less fun for themselves.
imPacTedLegend responded on 13 Jan 2009 at 9:14 pm #
SAC:
The problem with using Valve’s stats is that they can be construed to mean what ever you want.
Speaking at the present time:
The Demoman is the third most played class, narrowly between Pyro and Soldier.
He has narrowly edged out the Heavy as far as kills per hour are concerned, placing second.
(While I know the W + M1 Pyro is more a stereotype than fact, I think we can blame suicidal Pyros for his top spot).
The Demoman is the fourth longest lived class and has the highest life expectancy for a direct combat class.
His Pipe Bombs and Grenades account for 21.5% of all damage caused, narrowly ahead of the Soldier.
Those two weapons are the second and third most damaging projectile weapons behind the Sniper Rifle.
Presumably as a result of Sticky traps the Demo is hitting this damage at a range behind only the Sniper and Flare Gun.
Lastly the Grenades and Pipe Bombs are the first and fourth most likely projectile weapons to crit.
So what can we deduce from the stats:
The Demoman has a share of a little over one eighth of all playtime, barely behind the Pyro, and when are there not Pyros?
Demo’s die less frequently than any other class intended to play a combat role at mid range or shorter and while doing so are able to inflict over a fifth of all damage recorded. They are helped in this by having two of the three most damaging weapons on contact and having some of the highest rates of critical hits.
Lastly the Demoman is hitting damage with Stickies at a range, on average, further than the pistol.
So he: hits the most damage, crits more, lives longer than his rivals and, thanks to Stickies, has a longer effective range than everyone but the Sniper. (Note: the flaregun isn’t exactly being used to kill at that range).
Now I personally don’t agree with this image I’ve just compiled. The Demo is not an all-killing, unstoppable god of destruction – generally.
However I feel that the “unbalance”, in the Demoman comes from his versitility, his ablity to respond to almost any situation with confidence and explosives:
.He’s meant to operate at mid to close range but his Stickies are being used at further distances than the rocket launcher.
.Area denial is equally effective on both offence and defence.
.If you need Sentries destroying, who do you Uber?
So: does the Demoman need fixing?
No. If the Demo was an autowin condition then attackers would always lose but they don’t. While he may be somewhat overpowered I feel this is a necessary aspect of his role.
That’s why he’s the Grim Bloody Fable.
JOP responded on 14 Jan 2009 at 3:13 am #
@Himmelstoss: I don’t want to be splitting hairs; I’m just gonna say that the clip reduction was a nerf – but the airblast and sticky shooting were buffs for everyone else.
In effect, yes, these things negatively impact the Demoman – but in an incredibly small and imperceptible way. I’m sure this has been said elsewhere, but it just seems silly when players claim they have been ‘nerfed’ because they can’t leave Stickies in plain sight anymore.
Anyhow…
Regarding the Demoman, and why some might feel he is overpowered – I’ve played Demo, and it’s a difficult class to learn. The actual strategies involved are relatively straightforward (this grenade bounces, this one sticks, have bottle, will crit) – but the actual skill-level required to accomplish some tasks is comparatively much higher than other classes. (Jump around, fire a pipe bomb, hit that guy in mid-air? No problem…)
And certainly, not all Demo players are good players; I know one Demoman – let’s call him “Target McBackstab” – who doesn’t move, doesn’t jump around – just spams from the same location time and time again. If I can get behind him, he’s done for.
The problem seems to lie in the fact that the ones that have risen up the skill curve basically have a fairly winnable strategy against virtually every other class, including the Demoman’s supposed counter-classes.
For instance, the Scout should be able to hunt Demos fairly well (albeit best in wide, open spaces.) However, a highly-skilled Demoman can simply move backwards, detonating stickies at his feet. In theory the Scout should be able to move in an unpredictable fashion and avoid this, but in doing so, he moves out of optimal firing range. Whilst the Scout is still switching weapons, the Demo is simply looking a little higher to fire stickies ever closer to the Scout.
Of course, this comes under the heading of “questionable sticky usage” but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s a very viable defense for the Demoman. It also works well against Pyros.
Certainly on our server, the majority of frustration comes not from spammed grenades (although this has netted “Target” forth place on hlstatsx, incredibly) but the fact that our really good Demos are getting 3.5kpd to everyone else’s 0.8 – 1.25.
n00bie51 responded on 14 Jan 2009 at 3:14 am #
I’m too lazy right now to expresserize the entirety of my opinion upon this subject, but I just want to say that the class designations shouldn’t be taken to heart. The Scout, Soldier and Pyro are labeled as Offense classes, and the Demo Man, Engineer, and Heavy are labeled as Defense, but in reality Scouts, Soldiers and Pyros can be used quite effectively just when it comes to defense, and Demo Men, Engineers, and Heavies make effective offensive classes.
The only classes that really truly fit their designated roles for me appear to be the Spy, Sniper and Medic when it comes to Support.
Devenger responded on 14 Jan 2009 at 4:00 am #
@SAC:
I’m talking about high-skill fights. I’ll kill your average demoman without taking more than a minor hit – but I’m talking pickups or clanmatches against competent players who have chosen the Demoman as a class to master. I’ve chosen the Soldier; I know all the macthups against me, and a 110+ grenade hitting me after a 40+ rocketjump means I’m in a bad state no matter how well I then play it out. But never mind, blindly defend your decided side, don’t even comment on why my suggestion and interpretation would be against your apparently godlike understanding of the game [/sarcasm]
tl;dr? *slaps head*
n00bie51 responded on 14 Jan 2009 at 7:36 am #
Devenger, you’ve made agreeable points in your statement, but you have to realize that the game is not geared towards the competitive gamer. Valve focuses their statistics and their decisions in balance, changes, and unlockables on the majority, that is your standard pubber.
Someone may say, “Demo men aren’t over powered, they are bested frequently by Soldiers in pugs and scrims” or something of the like, and I would have to agree with them in that aspect, but in the end Valve doesn’t base their decisions on the microcosm of competitive gaming when they have the other masses of fans to support who don’t engage in such competitive events. Yes, Demos don’t top Soldiers among players of higher caliber, but it’s the pub experience that Valve really cares for in the end. So, if enough players were to voice their opinion on the matter and Valve agreed and found a way to nerf the Demo Man for the sake of enhancing the experience for the average Team Fortress 2 player, then I wouldn’t doubt Valve would make the change, much to the disapproval of those who find the Demo isn’t that advantageous in higher levels of competitive gameplay.
SAC responded on 14 Jan 2009 at 9:25 am #
It seems that my long post has attracted several absurdly longs posts… Yay I’m popular! =D
Okay, time to grind out…
@imPacTedLegend:
Okay, first up. YOU- play Demo as direct combat? Really? Perhaps explains why you’re not being uber good at him whilst others do.
Second point: No, you cannot have both the nade and sticky launcher equipped at the same time. And they both do a ton of damage because they’re technically both primary weapons, whereas most classes (in fact, all the rest) only get one.
Highest crit rates, I can’t argue, but the difference amongst high to mid high weapons there are practically nil. And I don’t expect secondaries to crit too often.
If it’s range you’re talking about, so why the pistol? There’s an rpg, a flare, a minigun, a syringe gun, an smg, a revolver, and they all work fine at about the same range too.
“So he: hits the most damage (again, you can’t have both weapons out at the same time), crits more (barely, and that with nades, not stickies), lives longer than his rivals (would be because people don’t use direct combat, which is a good strategy) and, thanks to Stickies, has a longer effective range than everyone but the Sniper (I listed some above that have about the same). ”
“Now I personally don’t agree with this image I’ve just compiled. The Demo is not an all-killing, unstoppable god of destruction – generally. (You’re a good man)”
“However I feel that the “unbalance”, in the Demoman comes from his [sic]versitility (yeah, and with that comes a lot to learn about how to use it), his ablity to respond to almost any situation with confidence and explosives: (I could name a few. Scouts are obvious. Soldiers have more health and rocketjumps. ANYONE who comes up to you and gives you a hug with a melee while not being stupid enough to be right in your face, which still damages you a bit by the way, is an instant counter. And a counter melee takes more skill too)”
“.He’s meant to operate at mid to close range but his Stickies are being used at further distances than the rocket launcher. (Orly)
.Area denial is equally effective on both offence and defence. (So are good sentries and heavies)
.If you need Sentries destroying, who do you Uber? (I don’t. There are easy ways without an uber, actually. And if there’s a competent pyro around or someone starts shooting the stickies, your plan is moot)”
“So: does the Demoman need fixing?
No. If the Demo was an autowin condition then attackers would always lose but they don’t. While he may be somewhat overpowered I feel this is a necessary aspect of his role.
That’s why he’s the Grim Bloody Fable.” I cannot disagree here. While I don’t agree to everything you said, this one I do.
@JOP:
“Certainly on our server, the majority of frustration comes not from spammed grenades (although this has netted “Target” forth place on hlstatsx, incredibly) but the fact that our really good Demos are getting 3.5kpd to everyone else’s 0.8 – 1.25.”
If and only if there happens to be a group very close together. And those are individual occurrences.
@Devenger:
You could also possibly argue then, that skilled Soldiers can easily hit other flying enemies with a rocket. Easier, in fact, since their projectiles fly straight and true, at the same speed. If we’re looking at awesome vs awesome team matchups, then Scouts -_- would know a simple double jump in a different direction would suffice. Soldiers should not then have a problem hitting Demomen on the ground, since they’re so good.
Do please tell me why your suggestion and interpretation would be against my apparently godlike understanding of the game. I has pointz hear. Are they not valid? How then is this “blindly” defending my “decided side”?
____________
And please, everyone please settle down. The only reason I’m defending Demomen (and Himmelstoss in that sense) is because I don’t find it all that overpowered as everyone keeps whining about. Sure, it’s irritating when you get critted or have 2-3 of your group blown up. But those aren’t commonplace. You just notice it a lot more than other kills because it’s more “in your face”-y. What do I do then? Suck it up. I’ll be back in 20 seconds with a knife.
As a fact, Demoman is my 4th or 5th class played, competing with the Soldier. So no, it’s not “my decided side”. I am eagerly awaiting the comment about that 1.5 times longer than this!
Side note: Possible to use forum ID here?
Coded One responded on 14 Jan 2009 at 10:32 am #
tl;dr
I’ll just restate what I said in my first comment. Demoman is just a Soldier with 8 rounds in one clip and the ability to blow up his projectiles in the air.
@Himmel commenting on my post, play Soldier moar. And stop saying moar, it’s annoying. I don’t think that the Demo is overpowered or annoying, I just thing that no one plays Soldier because a Demoman is just a better Soldier. Nerf the Demo so that he can’t detonate his stickies in midair.
General Goose responded on 14 Jan 2009 at 11:02 am #
The difference between offence and defence is simple:
Offence: Fairly good mobility, good at harassing, basically mobile pain givers, best when running about dealing pain
Defence: Good at area denial, releasing large amounts of power at once and in a specific location, but worse average mobility then the offensive classes.
Support: Taking out significant threats/healing.
Himmelstoss responded on 14 Jan 2009 at 12:15 pm #
@Coded: Ok I’ll stop saying moar, but let me use it one moar time. OK, I’m done.
Yeah, I do play soldier, but I just think the soldier’s a bit slow, which is why I prefer demoman. Moving on:
Demoman != Soldier. 8 rounds in a clip? Sure – but you’re comparing apples and oranges here. There’s two fundamental differences between stickies and rockets – no auto-detonate and arc. The arc is the number one reason why stickies can’t substitute for the rocket. Rockets are accurate, stickies are not. There’s no two ways about it – they’re completely different things. Yes, you can blow up projectiles in the air, but my point still stands. Stickies are not reliable long-range weapons, so there’s actually not much reason to air-detonate. Besides, consider that demomen don’t have bullet attacks. It’s a surprisingly large shortcoming. Bah, I think I’m starting to ramble now. I hope my point was made.
Coded One responded on 14 Jan 2009 at 12:40 pm #
Unfortunately, just because stickies have arc doesn’t make them less of an alternative to rockets. Rockets are slow (relatively) and are easy to spot flying towards you. At the range that stickies become useless is really the same range that rockets become easy to dodge (Heavies excluded). Therefore stickies win the range battle.
Himmelstoss responded on 14 Jan 2009 at 1:07 pm #
“At the range that stickies become useless is really the same range that rockets become easy to dodge (Heavies excluded). Therefore stickies win the range battle.”
If both are useless at that range, then stickies don’t necessarily win the range battle. >_>;
Specifically, what I meant is that it’s easy for rockets to shell a particular point at long range (e.g. sentry nest).
Coded One responded on 14 Jan 2009 at 2:44 pm #
So the details are this:
Advantages of Rocket Launcher: Long range bombardment of stationary objects.
Advantages of Stickies: Twice the clip size, ability to explode in midair.
You decide…
zrakt responded on 14 Jan 2009 at 4:48 pm #
btw, just 1 question.
as we all know each class has obvious pro’s and con’s, like the heavy with his slow speed, the scout with just 125hp, the pyro with his short range or the soldier with his small clip.
the problem is: i can’t see where the demo has his disadvantage. he has a nice movement speed, nice healt, nice dmg-output and a huge clip. also he has a weapon for close-mid range (nades) and one for mid-long range (stickies).
so, what exactly is what makes him not overpowered?
and plz facts, not opinions
Kollega responded on 14 Jan 2009 at 5:39 pm #
Demomen is NOT supposed to use sticky bombs in direct combat. Stickies is an AMBUSH weapon. Small clip of grenade launcher,plus difficult aim and lack of direct attack weapon is supposed to be demoman’s weakness.However,stickies are surprisingly effective in direct combat,thus negating demoman’s primary weakness.Does THAT make any sense to whiners?
Airblast and ability to shoot stickies isn’t nerfing Demo “that” much. Not many Pyros can effectively use airblast,and stickies should be planted in hidden spots anyway – you always could shoot them OFF a surface,remember? Plus,you typically don’t have time to destroy stickies laid in your plain sight,and stickies on control point can be used as “red herring” for enemies,forcing them to waste their time.
Basically,Demoman’s stickies should activate only when they land on the ground/wall/celling – that would prevent abuse of stickies in direct combat. And probably,Demo should have 6 stickies in his bomb launcher,and 6 grenades in grenade launcher as well.That way,demoman would have two extra grenades before resorting to stickies,and two less stickies in bomb launcher(Note:he should still be able to lay own eight).I’m not sure about that,but that seems pretty good alternative – sticky spammers would be forced to actually USE grenade launcher,like all normal players.
General Goose responded on 14 Jan 2009 at 6:40 pm #
Am I the only person on the planet who finds it impossible to detonate stickies in mid-air?
sheepman responded on 14 Jan 2009 at 8:43 pm #
Himelstoss, pyro’s really aren’t a counter to demos if you take out the sticky launcher. By airblasting all they’re doing is pushing the stickys towards you (where they want to go). They’re still screwed: go over the stickys and die or stay back and get piped/stickied.
IMO stickies + nade launcher= prisecondaryweapon, nade launcher for heavy classes who can’t dodge well: heavy, soldier and to a lesser extent demomen. stickies, to stop people getting to you allowing you to bombard them with pipes, and stickies for fast classes like scout/ medic. The rest of the classes are just personal choice for what you use.
SAC responded on 15 Jan 2009 at 1:58 am #
@zrakt:
Not to lol, but four of the nine classes have 125 hp.
One thing that Dr. No’s either neglect or try to avoid a lot is RELOADING. As far as I’m concerned, that L4D sound files could be a little more useful for the Demoman (not for the entirety of TF2, because everyone reloads fairly often).
Counted out a few as well. Scouts are obvious, though no one really plays them now, as are Soldiers and anyone competent with melee attacks. Spies perhaps, since they’re always stopping to lay down traps.
@Kollega:
You could also argue that not many Snipers can shoot effectively with the sniper rifle…
Mickyan responded on 15 Jan 2009 at 3:58 am #
Long story short. Anyone can be demoman and get a shitload of kills, this doesn’t happen with the other classes
As demoman all you have to do is hide stickies above a tunnel entrance in one of the many chokepoints which are present in most of the maps, and here you go, you get a kill(or 2..or 3..) without having to do anything at all bur right clicking
Same goes for the soldier after all, most classes (actually.. all classes except sniper) are for close range combat, soldier/demoman just got to shoot a rocket/pipebomb at their feet (with demoman toward the enemy half meter from you. big deal.) and that’s it, you got another kill. Valve tried to patch this by making so only rocket jumps do half the damage.. all it changed is that now before shooting soldiers jump without actually making a rocket jump at all, but they get half damage anyway
Kollega responded on 15 Jan 2009 at 5:22 am #
@SAC:
Flamethrower’s primary fire is,well… fire. Airblasting is alternate usage of flamethrower,but sniping is primary (and only) usage of sniper rifle. What i’m trying to say here,is that not every Pyro have mastered an airblast – and i can’t use airblast properly…
…an i’m pretty much useless with a snper rifle,too.
SAC responded on 15 Jan 2009 at 11:32 am #
@Mickyan:
While that is true, it is boooooring! And you’re not being team credit. Maybe that’s why ye hate the Demo so much, and maybe it’s just me, but it doesn’t seem that I get killed a whole lot by campers. Again, maybe it’s just me.
@Kollega:
Lolcrits. But that IS my point; you could say that not every Pyro has gotten the airblast down, but neither do a third of snipers. Much more if you do pubs, I’m sure.
Mooman responded on 15 Jan 2009 at 7:10 pm #
I’d like to thank Himeeltoss for remaining unbiased in a guide for using a class.
JOP responded on 16 Jan 2009 at 1:27 am #
@SAC:
“Certainly on our server, the majority of frustration comes not from spammed grenades (although this has netted “Target” forth place on hlstatsx, incredibly) but the fact that our really good Demos are getting 3.5kpd to everyone else’s 0.8 – 1.25.”
“If and only if there happens to be a group very close together. And those are individual occurrences.”
If you mean that their kpd is comparatively high as a result of group killing – then I have to tell you, that’s the worst part – it’s not.
As I understand it, the Demo should be vulnerable in certain areas; close-range attack, for one, and also from opponents that can dodge or otherwise invalidate grenade usage.
The problem is, these players have developed a style of play in which they jump around constantly, using stickies to effectively attack at midrange. Should anyone enter close range, they simply sticky their feet – a tactic that is harmful to their own health, and yet against the average health classes, one that is highly effective.
They are by no means unbeatable – I’ve managed to knife the number one guy a couple of times now. But there is a definite, palpable disparity between using a Scout to mow down an average Demoman, and being the Scout that just got stickied to death, again, by one of these ‘master Demomen.’
Unfortunately, I don’t know what else to say; obviously, a lot of this comes from anecdotal evidence. Guess we’ll have to see if Valve takes action again.
SAC responded on 16 Jan 2009 at 3:51 am #
Valve will take action, as long as people continue whining enough. =(
Again, pyro’s and crockets do the same thing for groups, as does a competent heavy, and they too can fight individual enemies, just as stated here for the Demo. And again, “Our really good ____…” kind of qualifies any class to be bait for complaints. When my game is on (which it sometimes is), I can be a masterful Spy, and virtually untouchable if the enemy hasn’t shot me before my cloak activates, and hence, unfightable by any class, while the enemy runs around their spawn area desperately checking every nook and cranny. You could argue Pyro, just as the Demoman has for melee attacks, “but the Demoman can destroy lower health classes without dying by hurting himself!”, as can a Spy run easily backwards, revolver in hand, against a W + M1, or otherwise the Pyro zigzagging is slowed down.
What I’m really curious about, though, is where you’re getting your information from. Or is this just “my experience in an ‘average’ game”?
Not that any of this is going to make any difference, anyway. Nerf the black guy AGAIN if ye are that incapable of fighting “a competent” one. The top dog on my server averages a 3.5 KD totally, with half the classes, and that’s only really true on a bad day for him. I’m sure Himmelstoss is similar is why you’re not happy.
One last time responded on 16 Jan 2009 at 7:27 pm #
Soldiers pros over demo- Can shoot long distances in short periods of time, more health.
Demomans pros over soldier- bigger ammo clip, best insta damage in the game, can explode projectiles mid air, faster running speed, and imao(in my arrogant opinion) arcs projectiles. Not that this all matters but we’ll all rue the day soldier gets laser guided rockets.
General Goose responded on 16 Jan 2009 at 10:41 pm #
They should at least nerf the power of stickies in mid-air. Make them do half damage or something. Won’t nerf the proper Demos (those who use stickies for laying traps, sticky jumping, sentry destruction and occasionally as a way of killing enemies in pursuit.)
Himmelstoss fixes your game | ubercharged.net responded on 25 Jan 2009 at 8:01 am #
[...] the most hated little bugger on this site. If I so much as mention “demoman”, an army of whiners rises up to scream “DEMO OVERPOWRED!! NERF NAO VALV PLXZZ!@!!”, usually in my face. [...]
Vaffelmann responded on 26 Apr 2009 at 1:56 am #
Thank you!
I have been so ignorant! I always saw the nade launcher as a way of distracting when your sticky launcher was out of ammo. I have doubled my efficiency and lifespan as demo by learning how to use it!
Almost noone on the ps3 version of tf2 uses the nade launcher actively (yes, i play on a ps3, please don`t point and stare) and I have a lot more fun playing demo now.
Silencer responded on 12 Aug 2009 at 1:03 am #
3 stickies. You need 3 to destroy a lvl 3 sentry.
rrr responded on 30 Oct 2009 at 4:33 am #
it takes 3 stickies to destroy a sentry, not 4
Adam responded on 01 Nov 2009 at 11:40 pm #
This guide is great. I love it.
People don’t actually seem to realise how difficult Demoman is to play, with the fact your grenades can bounce back into your face, your stickies can be blown under your feet and you detonate them, and you’re trying to destroy a Sentry, then you get airblasted into the open.
I actually used to be rubbish at Demoman, I had no sense of prediction, didn’t know that I had to fire the stickies near the Sentry to destroy it, and I was using the Sticky launcher as my primary – Although it works well, and is so fun to launch a sticky into the air and detonate it in a rocketjumping Soldiers face, the grenade launcher works miracles.
Iced Jack responded on 06 Nov 2009 at 3:21 pm #
So I started playing Demo after getting the Stovepipe. Now I’m doing rather well. I was fortunate enough to record a demo of me playing demo during a Badlands PUG. I think now that I have the arch trajectories pretty well memorized I just have to work on jumping and leading. Great tips in the guide. Keep ‘em up.
PPhotsauce responded on 23 Nov 2009 at 12:53 pm #
Aim grenades at the knees, then they launch everyone in the air.
Voyager I responded on 06 Feb 2010 at 7:22 pm #
You’re really overrating the importance of Grenades. Yes, they’re more fun to get kills with and they make you look cooler, but effective sticky spam will allow you to deal more damage with greater reliability while minimizing your expose to return fire. It’s the best mid-ranged weapon in the game, which is something you want to take full advantage of because you don’t have any safe options for a close-up fight.
Grenades are for supplementary spam and personal defense when something does manage to get close to you, or if you’re so much better than your opponents that you can just rambo through them with whatever.
ESEA Season 4 Demo stats as proof; note that the best Demos also tend to have the highest percentage of their frags from Stickies (second from the right)
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tHCJziCZxUdxieCRVwXDuxA&output=html
wrenchKill responded on 10 Feb 2010 at 8:39 pm #
Nice information, however, I disagree that you need to use the Grenade Launcher as your primary weapon. The Sticky Bomb Launcher adds much more control over where your bombs go and has twice as much ammo.
Generally, if you are not skilled, then you can spam grenades. Or if you want to take full advantage of the Demoman, learn to use the Sticky Bomb Launcher as your primary weapon. Of course, on defence maps you can spam.
The Sticky Bomb Launcher is definetelly my weapon of choise.
N responded on 23 Feb 2010 at 12:58 am #
Bad demos playing against bad players give demos a bad name.
Go play some competitive matches and come back to let us know how OP the Demo is.