The Scout WAS the no-brainer update choice!
A while ago, back when the Heavy update was about to appear on computers worldwide and miniguns were going to shred hundreds of players to tiny pieces, I let out a cry concerning the plight of the Scout. He was getting too weak, I said, and wasn’t really a viable class choice on the basis you’d just end up dying a lot. The point I was trying to get at? He was the only class who could logically be given the next class update.
Isn’t being proved right great?
Now, granted, I’m not saying Valve popped over to Ubercharged and made their choice solely on the basis of what I had written, although I may like to think that. Yet when they themselves say that this update is about tackling the fact you can’t do anything as a Scout on certain maps without dying, there seems to be some sort of spooky parallel between what I was saying and what they want to do. So, it seems a good time to revisit the ideas in the old article, take into account some of the relatively new stuff, and see if Ubercharged can change the face of the game as we know it! Probably not, but hey, we can dream…
Like a leech – The vampire bat
So, one of the goals Valve wants to attain with this update is making the Scout be more of a battler than a big pile of bits on the floor. Well, OK, they don’t specifically say that, but let’s read between the lines a little and pretend it’s there. This weapon gives the Scout the means to do this, by allowing the Scout to hit someone and increase his max health by leeching it off others. The drawback was a dramatic loss of speed while you’re changing to and holding the weapon. This certainly seems to be a useful survivability tool – We’ve seen how long a Pyro can last with that little bit of extra health – Yet the vampire bat removes the issue of just having such a health boost and abusing the hell out of it. The fact that other classes such as the Engineer and Spy are gaining more powerful tools by the second also seems to show that such an aid to survival may truly benefit some players.
Perhaps, as noted before, such an idea can’t even be implemented due to the issues of coding it into the game and all the other fiddly bits that come with making such a weapon work. However, we have seen with the introduction of Natascha that classes can be forced to slow down, so maybe that’s not as big of a deal as it first seems. The only real question is whether you’d want to go back to the original bat after unlocking this… Maybe give it a damage increase? Still, the vampire bat has got potential, achieves Valve’s goals for the class, and could be pretty awesome in the process… What’s not to like?
Stopping that sentry? – The Boston Blaster
Ok, this is the one the provided the biggest scope for disagreement and discussion, and not because of the fact the old name I gave it of “The street depleter” was hilariously awful. Basically, the weapon was to provide a way for Scouts to get past a sentry that may be blocking their path. The issue raised was that an Engineer and his sentry is naturally the nemesis of the Scout, and this shouldn’t change one bit. Fair enough, I suppose, but also note the fact that the Engineer has received improvements to some of his other little toys. Making his him more useful and a more appealing choice to players. Meaning more dead Scouts. I’ve never seen this bonus to the Engineer as a good thing, because in my eyes it takes his from the rank of tricky adversary to an almost untouchable behemoth… He can make his teammates pop up as fast as lightning, and repair his deadly machines without ever worrying about running out of metal. Surely it’s time to take him down a peg or two, and keep him on his toes? That’s what the Boston Blaster does!
“Bring it! BRIIIIIING IT!”
Now, note I’m not saying the sentry is ever destroyed via the use of this weapon, or that it allows the Scout to take on a sentry single-handedly with relative success every time. It’s simply a means of opening up the path for him to actually get to the battle without dying, a problem which is present to a massive extent on maps such as (Wouldn’t you credit it) Goldrush and Dustbowl. Maybe the idea of hitting a ball in the path of the sentry to distract it is better. Maybe the idea needs refinement. But just take the core of the idea – Actually allowing the Scout to move about and fight more – and you’re onto a winner.
Scatter! It’s the… Uh… Scattergun!
It’s odd that after all this time I still can’t think up a way for the Scattergun to be improved, but at least part of me knows why this is now – There’s nothing technically wrong with the default one we’ve got. It can kill people in a brutal and satisfying manner, gives the challenge of getting close enough to try and do such a thing, and can even allow you to peep round a corner and take out a sentry if you get really lucky and the Engineer in question has only two brain cells. I tried browsing the Steam forums for Team Fortress 2, but since most people there just like to whine in a way that makes me actually have to decode what they were saying, that didn’t really help.
I did have one tiny idea, relating back to the “scatter” in the gun’s name – How about giving it the Pyro’s airblast? Would be interesting in one sense, stopping all those rockets that can kill you in one and making the Scout a more strategic choice. Still, I accept that having two classes bouncing people around could begin to get a bit annoying, but there you go. If this thought shows us anything, however, it’s that the end result for the alternative scattergun will certainly be interesting…
So there you go.
Read it and weep tears of joy, Valve. Ubercharged has just solved practically all your woes about the Scout, and using these ideas would make your game that little bit more brilliant. You can send the cheque in the mail. Preferably one with more than six digits on it.
supremesonic on January 1st 2009 in scout, team fortress 2, ubercharged, valve
Stumble it!
The Rev. Name Withheld responded on 01 Jan 2009 at 1:19 am #
The only idea for a Scout unlockable I’ve come up with is the wooden bat: does triple damage until you get a crit, and then is breaks and only does a quarter damage.
Yes, it would have to be able to crit on no-crit servers.
vbigiani responded on 01 Jan 2009 at 1:19 am #
On the “probably too hard” bit – As a fellow developer, I get pretty pissed off when non-technical people say “this idea looks easy to implement” or “I suppose such an idea would be too hard to implement” – both because technical discourse is to be based on facts and not theories, and because people predictably fail to discern what is easy to code and what is not.
Also, a sentry gun is the only thing that can stop a <a href=”http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iFS4K1sqIo”l33t scout from winning a game single-handedly. Giving them an edge against sentries is like making heavies backstab- and headshot- proof.
pigeonreaper responded on 01 Jan 2009 at 1:49 am #
I quite like the idea of a bat that does more damage the slower the target moves. Against a fellow Scout it will do less damage than the regular bat, but against a stationary target it does lots of damage. It kinda fits with the Scout’s love of speed, plus serves as an alternative to the normal bat rather than a replacement.
Corodan responded on 01 Jan 2009 at 3:39 am #
I’d still want a nailgun. D;
Sypheros responded on 01 Jan 2009 at 3:41 am #
Im at odds with the scout having any ability to kill a sentry. I think he should be able to destroy a lvl 3 if the Engie is out on a smoke break in 2fort, but it should take a bit, 5-10 sec? I dont know, if their entire team goes scout and the enemy team engie, the Scout team cannot have a chance.
Wyatt responded on 01 Jan 2009 at 4:13 am #
In playing a lot of Scout the class has one drawback, the main reason you just don’t play scout in a match and that is of the sentry. A map can be totally cut off for a Scout by adding one sentry. My fix for this has always been a sapper gun. Think Ion cannon or EMP pulse only in pistol form. Unlike the Spy’s sapper it wouldn’t be enough to destroy the sentry but it would disable it for a limited time giving the scout the chance to slip by.
This would allow the Scout to get back to his main job of snatching and capping along with allowing him to run interference for an attacking force by disabling sentries just before an uber or a large group of team mates show up. I think it would need to be a pistol or at least a projectile of some kind because lets face it, unless its a blind corner the scout has no chance of getting right up to the sentry like a spy does. Have it fire at the same or comparable rate as the Pryo’s flare gun so you couldn’t spam it.
Now if disabling the sentry entirely is too powerful and should be left to spy’s then just have the gun mark the sentry so that it ignores the scout for a limited time. In either case this allows the scout to be useful again in a map.
I agree that the Scout really needs no upgrade in battle. The scattergun is arguably overpowered depending on what side of it your on. How many times have you turned a corner only to be leveled by a point blank crit blast. But that’s how it should work. The scout is quick and light. If he has the moves he can take you down but land a few shots and you grind him up. Giving the scout a health upgrade again is not needed. The scout is pretty powerful as he is going toe-to-toe. There is the Scout’s great nemesis the Pryo. In arena we will often play all scout just as a laugh. Usually the killer bees are unstoppable until the group runs into that lone pryo that lights them all and wipes the whole group. But every hero needs a villain so lets let that one ride.
Pants McGee responded on 01 Jan 2009 at 4:44 am #
Personally, I want a baseball bat that has a charge attack…
Call it the Bonkinator, acts like the Pipe Wrench from Opposing Force… 100% crit, but a slower attack speed
alex responded on 01 Jan 2009 at 5:32 am #
wouldnt something with 100% crits be a ewapon with no crits?
just a though
alex responded on 01 Jan 2009 at 5:35 am #
oh. i take it then that the charge would allow 100% crits? didnt see that sorry. If this is the case then i reckon that there would have to be some significant drawback, like slower scout speed (dare i say such a thing) or normal capture speed (obviously this wouldnt apply in all maps). Maybe even the old favourite of a lower attack speed, but then the scout is all about speed, so you can’t really do anything that takes away speed.
Website Administrator responded on 01 Jan 2009 at 5:59 am #
Something tells me you’ll appreciate this: http://www.notourspy.com/2008/12/post-comment_19.html
Robert64 responded on 01 Jan 2009 at 8:43 am #
An idea for a pistol replacement is a flargun style device firing some sort of electro-magnetic thing. It is useless against people, but if it hits a sentry it will disable for one or two seconds, enough for the scout to run past. The scout only has one shot, which is replenished on ammo pickup, meaning he can’t just keep shooting a sentry while other teammates take care of the engi. Also, the range of the weapon would be 1024 game units or less, meaning you can’t disable a sentry that can’t see you. This would mean a scout can get past an annoying sentry (but obviously not two or more), so can get past the front line and scout. But he is slightly weaker against enemy humans, as he has no accurate mid range weapon.
Robert64 responded on 01 Jan 2009 at 8:46 am #
Whoops, didn’t read Wyatt’s post. Yeah, basically his idea.
JerkFace responded on 01 Jan 2009 at 9:21 am #
Wait wait wait, I thought you played xbox tf2 last time I checked. Which means you’ve got less understanding of the tf2 that is actually being updated here. And you completely missed the huge point on the blog that stated that they wanted the scout to be more viable on maps like goldrush and dustbowl. Changing class speed or health too drastically changes the base of a class, as seen with the pyro’s +50, you couldn’t tell if that pyro was going to take hits like a demo or a soldier. And as for giving him airblast, no, don’t do this. Airblast is for the pyro, you don’t go around giving classes’ unique abilities to other ones.
(n00bie51 would probably have quite a few things to say about this)
SAC responded on 01 Jan 2009 at 10:26 am #
You think one sentry is bad? Play on my server. No class limits. :O
Maybe it’s just stock maps, but I don’t seem to have that much problem with scout (mainly because I DON’T run into any area with a sentry [unless I can peek kill it when the engy's gone]). But meh.
Also, Valve seems to be on the money. My least played class would be Medic, then Heavy, then Pyro, then Scout. And while I still don’t have the ubersaw and KGB after 20 odd hours of the bottom, I got all Pyro weapons in like, 6 hours. Oo
At least the next pack, if it follows this trend, I can’t complain about (almost equally Soldier and Demoman
)
Herpers responded on 01 Jan 2009 at 5:16 pm #
I think you are all crazy for wanting to make the scout able to get past sentries, sentries are for area denial specifically against scouts! Take that away and they will be pretty useless seeing as almost all other classes can take them down single handed (unless there are other enemies around). The MOST i could see valve ever doing is some kind of goo that makes the sentry spin a bit slower thus allowing a skilled scout to circle-strafe the sentry. To address the main goal of the scout update, to make the scout more useful on maps like Dustbowl and Goldrush really all you need is an easy way for the scout to get behind enemy lines because a single scout can wreak havoc with a team, stealing health packs killing ubered medics then running like a little girl back home. An idea for the scout in this case would be:
1/2 eaten sandvich stolen from the heavy of course heals him 60 points or something but takes much longer to eat than regular sandvich say 7 secs (because his mouth is much smaller). But when eating he can still move but at a reduced rate, reduced about as much as the heavy when spinning his gun, can only be eaten once! Until you have to go back to a weapon locker. The purpose for this is a small health buff behind enemy lines so that even after taking some damage from enemies the scout can continue on rather than seeking out a healthpack. Also i love batting people to death so i want the scattergun replaced by a Superbat or something.
n00bie51 responded on 01 Jan 2009 at 5:31 pm #
The Scout is arguably the most balanced class in the game. I was hoping the Scout was going to be one of the last classes to have its class pack released, because I feel that there’s a good chance whatever Valve may do will only make it more unbalanced. If you think it’s an under powered class, why are they used more effectively and frequently in competitive matches than Pyros, Engineers or Spies? Valve only picked the Scout because they mostly pay attention to the pub-experience which is where the majority of the players are focused, and I guess for many people, the Scout is the least played which was probably a factor in why it got picked for the next class pack. No, it’s not the most played class nor are there as many skilled players that can cut hard into the front lines as a Soldier or a Demo Man could, but that doesn’t make it the weakest.
I can’t tell if you were joking about these ideas especially with that last quip at the end of the article with Valve sending you money, because they’re logically absurd. I found the whole zomg-i-was-rite-those-poor-Scouts attitude somewhat obnoxiously smug. I have to agree with vbigiani, especially when you consider the fact that something may sound good on paper, but it’s a different story to actually try to execute it successfully (ever heard of Communism?). In this case, I don’t even think any of those ideas sound good in text to begin with.
That’s all off the top of my head for now.
Jesusmart TM responded on 01 Jan 2009 at 6:18 pm #
Hee hee. Communism….
I agree, a good scout can kill any other class. But what I’m more worried about are idiots achievement whores clogging up the servers. Forget, Pyros, Medics and Heavies, at least they could help somewhat. A bad scout is nothing but cannon fodder. Pointless. And I’ll bet none of them can resist:
“Need a dispensah heah!”"Need a dispensah heah!”
“Need a dispensah heah!”
“Need a dispensah heah!”"Need a dispensah heah!”
“Need a dispensah heah!”
n00bie51 responded on 01 Jan 2009 at 6:51 pm #
Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention class packs introduce craploads of noobs picking classes they shouldn’t; I’m thinking when the Scout update comes out, Engineers and Pyros will have a field day.
Mooman responded on 01 Jan 2009 at 10:17 pm #
@WebAdmin: Cry some more. Valve made one mistake. One. That’s enough to make people honestly think that Valve hate the people pouring revenue into their hands? Playing as a backburner pyro isn’t as simple as cloaking and dodging. About 1 in 10 attempts to get behind enemy lines will be successful. Even if you it is, it’s entirely down to luck whether or not you’ll actually be able to burn backs. One glance back from one person blows your plan to Ragnarok and you end up as a big pile of leather and intestines.
Airblasting isn’t as easy as it looks. Try it sometime. It doesn’t make pyros untouchable, you’ve got all the time in the world to fire a second rocket at its feet or bring out the shotgun. On the other hand of being on the bad end of an airblast, I have yet to see a pyro good enough to use demo weapons effectively. Well, unless the demo is mindlessly spamming stickies and mashing M2.
Ahem. Onto the scout update.
1) The vampire bat might work. The scout would need a pretty harsh speed decrease when wielding it. It’s hard enough to hit a scout doing the batdance. If the scout could undo the lucky hits he suffers, things might get a bit sketchy.
2) The ideas for EMP pistol. If the scoutcould just let off one or two shots and be off, proscouts would just demolish everything. He’d just need to switch targets every few seconds. However, if the EMPistol only kept a sentry distracted/unable to see the scout for .1 or so of a second, the scout would need to focus on making sure the sentry didn’t kill him. He’d be left open to everybody else stopping him. The problem now is tha if an engi has a sentry up back at their spawnpoint/way behind their lines, the scout may be too short on ammo to get past. The answer? Teamwork! Since so many people seem to like the idea of being unable to do much of anything without a buddy, a few scouts could form a band of themselves and work together to do the usual scout things.
3) Miscatter gun. I really don’t know. Maybe a sandvich type replacement? Not so much a health item as just an item? It would require a boatload of creativity to think up an item useful enough to replace a primary weapon.
Long post is loooooooong.
Zorgulon responded on 01 Jan 2009 at 10:58 pm #
@Mooman
Exactly. Airblasting means you need to pay constant attention, and risk wasting an eighth of your fuel if you get the timing wrong. And if your ping is higher than 100ms or so, (as mine is on the UC server) I find in practice that you have to pre-empt the rocket by blasting before it’s near you to actually return it.
I agree with n00bie51 that the Scout is probably the most balanced class in the game, and its hard to see how any changes could be made without spoiling that. I predict many cases of Backburner-type backpedalling after this update comes out.
Scouts are also responsible, it seems, for most of my deaths- my favourite classes (Medic, Sniper, Spy) are pretty Scout-vulnerable and I don’t relish an increase in skilled Scouts. The noobs I can cope with.
Corodan responded on 02 Jan 2009 at 3:54 am #
Are we seriously all forgetting the Nailgun?
D;
Kadoo responded on 02 Jan 2009 at 5:36 am #
Yo, for those ppl that say sentries are SUPPOSED to stop scouts, check Meet the Scout. when was the last time you dashed past a level 1 sentry across well for more than 3 seconds? (glad that Engi can’t make “more gun.”)
DrTarget responded on 02 Jan 2009 at 5:52 am #
@Noobie51.
On the comment of ‘Why do you think Spies are played in super-competitive matchups!?’ I would argue it’s because ‘pro’ style play is very distinct and different from teamplay, and on average, play much smaller teams. If I remember correctly, the game is balanced for 12 v 12, and the average pro group… like six versus six, isn’t it?
Just because ‘the best players in the world’ find the Scout useful in the style of games they play doesn’t mean a class is balanced in anything but the micorcosm that is the pro circuit. Since Valve is catering to more then them, well, that is that.
The other big part you’re missing is the puzzle is that pro-gamer Scouts are effective specifically because the highly organized and practiced team is covering the Scout’s weaknesses 100%. He wouldn’t have to worry about Sentry gun area denial because any Sentry gun built would be ahinnilated by the other ‘preferred classes’–namely Demoman. Notice that EVERY Demo or Soldier is supported by a Medic? Again, happens in an extremely professional microcosm, not in the wider game scope.
That’s the logical trap involved with pro-gaming. Most people playing the game aren’t into or even remotely interested. I sure as hell dont’ want to deal with playing TF2 at ‘pro’ level, and creating more flexability in the classes is not a bad thing.
Also, people who cry about the game being ruined due to classes changes are straight up crybabies. You can argue some changes were a bit much (Ubersaw creating the now-maligned and HILARIOUS Uber-chain of situational death, the old Backburner-my-pyro-is-a-Soldier), but, in the larger scope of things, none of them have ‘ruined the game’. I sincerely doubt the Scout will either.
DrTarget responded on 02 Jan 2009 at 5:53 am #
Ugh, WTB edit button. Spies = scouts. Heh.
SAC responded on 02 Jan 2009 at 8:14 am #
@Corodan:
I don’t think the Nailgun would be a good replacement. How would that work out with the scouts speed?
I think the idea of a vampire bat is pretty technically feasible, but before vbigiani starts wailing on me, I’d like to point out my theory! The Blutsauger can, so why not a melee weapon?
The question now would be how exactly would that be a good alternative to the bat.
Venom King responded on 02 Jan 2009 at 8:20 am #
For a Scattergun idea, how about “The Bull”
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=768636
Pyrit responded on 02 Jan 2009 at 8:20 am #
The key thing here is to make an update which makes things easier but not ultimately better. The Pyro’s airblast allows him to reflect rockets and stickies which make life easier for him when spotted by a Soldier or a Demoman – but it doesn’t make him invincible against them.
If you want an update which helps the Scout do better against Sentries, don’t make it that Sentries become a minor problem for him. I don’t think a ’sapper-esque’ unlock is good, either, because this replaces the Spies job much more effectively making the Spy somewhat useless in taking down Sentries. On maps with quick capping points like Granary, disabling a Sentry for a few seconds is all a Scout needs to get the point and win. If the Engineer can’t prevent his sentry from being disabled, that’s a no-no either. That’s why they made stickies destructible, so Engies wouldn’t be in that ‘helpless’ situation of watching stickies pile up and all they can do is run away and see their stuff get blown up.
I think something like a weapon which possibly delays the Sentry from aiming onto the Scout – so instead of instantly aiming on, it takes maybe 1 to 2 seconds to aim on and fire as long as the Scout isn’t standing still. This means Sentries can still be a threat, but a Scout may be able to get past a Sentry unharmed when capping intel or may also allow Scouts to circle-strafe Sentries to a better level.
n00bie51 responded on 02 Jan 2009 at 9:20 am #
DrTarget, you stated a valid rebuttal and I’m familiar with how Scouts are played competitively. I stated that Valve focuses on the majority of players outside of the microcosm of highly competitive gamers which you mentioned and because of this the Scout class pack could upset the players on the competitive level. I’m beginning to think deeper about this topic.
I personally don’t think these changes have “ruined” the game, but of course they haven’t necessarily improved the experience for me.
Doomsday One responded on 03 Jan 2009 at 12:57 am #
Pyrit, I think you’re spot on with the idea of delaying the sentry rather than disabling it. It would mean that scouts would use it as a last resort, rather than “oh, I either go past the sentry, or take the slightly longer route”. And no-one should forget that with these ‘alternative’ weapons, when equipped, he loses a useful combat weapon, showing quite a trade-off.
If I recall, Paper Shadow had a similar idea somewhere on the Ubercharged forums, involving a baseball, which would ‘distract’ the sentry for just long enough to run past it.
Something like that would probably go well with what you’re saying, allowing the scout a very small window in which to run past the sentry, but offering no chance for the scout to destroy it (plus, the sentry will still be shooting).
JOP responded on 03 Jan 2009 at 2:57 am #
The underlying issue here is this: Class A has a disadvantage; Class B can take advantage of this to counter Class A. e.g.
Heavies are vulnerable to Snipers,
Snipers are vulnerable to Spies,
Spies are vulnerable to Pyros,
Etc.
However, the key word here is ‘advantage’, not ‘guaranteed instant kill’. (If that was the case, the game would be nothing more than a glorified hi-tech version of Rock / Paper / Scissors.)
Players can learn to mitigate against the natural weaknesses of their class, and prevent them from being exploited.
For instance, many a Spy has snuck up on a Sniper only to find that the latter is (a) wedged into a corner and (b) checks their surrounding area every few seconds, looking for suspicious friendlies.
The grand problem with the Scout is that his counter class – the Engineer – has a weapon that can kill Scouts in a matter of seconds, at range, without respite. To compound matters, the Scout’s natural speed and hit ‘n’ run style of play carries him into firing range without warning.
If the Valve forums are any kind of sampling (admittedly something of a vocal minority, but still) then there doesn’t seem to be a whole lot of Scout players that want to be able to destroy sentry guns, or even run past them with impunity. There just seems to be a lot of players that want better than 1 in 100 odds against the things.
SAC responded on 03 Jan 2009 at 6:35 am #
@JOP:
But what is the PYRO weak against? :O
), and the class doesn’t have a particular weakness outside being caught out in the open or from a far distance, situations a good pyro will naturally avoid.
Honestly, a professional pyro can destroy any class any day (see Don Newman for a bad example
Also, I think you’re pretty right about that; the only way a scout could take down a sentry is in rare conditions:
1) The engineer is gone, no one else is around, and peeking the corner.
2) The sentry is around a corner and facing away, allowing you to run behind it and circlestrafe kill. Also requires no one else around and a good amount of skill.
3) The sentry is away blasting an ubered teammate who can’t get close enough. Also required no one else around. The engy can be taken out, but makes the job that much harder.
4) The scout is a spy. :O
5) The scout is an admin. :O
Pyrit responded on 03 Jan 2009 at 10:08 am #
@SAC:
Pyros are weak against anything which keeps their distance. Saying that ‘pro pyros’ can destroy any class can be said for any of the other classes. A ‘pro spy’ can take down any class he wants as long as he disguises and cloaks at the right times, a good sniper can take down any opponent as long as he isn’t in close combat.
Apejack responded on 03 Jan 2009 at 12:44 pm #
Really, I think the problem isn’t “the Scout has a disadvantage against sentry guns”, but “2fort, Dustbowl, and Gold Rush are too closed in for Scouts to have any chance to avoid/destroy a sentry gun”. On something like Gravel Pit or Well, you can either avoid a sentry, or stay out of its range and (provided the engy isn’t around), pistol-spam it to death.
I’d say the Scout is fine otherwise. The scattergun’s spread seems a bit weird to me at times, but aside that, the problem seems to be that the three most popular maps are mostly made up of small corridors that the Scout has no room to dodge and flank in, which is more of a problem with the maps than the class.
Manjo responded on 03 Jan 2009 at 2:47 pm #
Maybe we’ll get something besides a weapon for an update too. I can see scout maybe getting something like a new pair of shoes.
Like maybe some Sneaking Shoes which make you a bit slower (medic speed maybe?) but muffle your footsteps for other players, along with making sentries unable to detect you unless shoot at them or the scout runs into the sentries “sight”.
This keeps a sentries value in many spots, but keeps a sentry from blocking multiple entries/exits for the scout.
Pyrit responded on 04 Jan 2009 at 12:39 am #
I don’t think classes actually make any noises while walking unless it’s on a particular surface like glass (in Steel infront of one of RED’s spawns) or wood like on Dustbowl. Besides, only keen players listen for footsteps anyway, more people probably listen to voice commands or character voices. Hearing a Demoman yell ‘Medic!’ and ‘Fire, fire!’ close at hand can tell you that your foe is probably very weak.
I agree that maps are one problem for Scouts, but having more open space is also a great advantage for Snipers to get good shots. On Gravelpit, a defending Sniper can take a few steps out of the spawn room and pretty much get a decent view of everywhere around point C. A ludicrously good Sniper can really annoy an enemy team. I think that’s probably Valve’s decision to make less open spaced maps, because they don’t want Snipers to be untouchable in some cases.
n00bie51 responded on 04 Jan 2009 at 6:37 am #
@SAC: There is no such thing as a “professional Pyro.” Nobody plays it at that level of competition and I agree with Pyrit.
JOP responded on 04 Jan 2009 at 12:07 pm #
I’m pretty sure that (sans the din of battle) footsteps can be heard; I know a Demoman that was able to rumble me sneaking up behind him because he heard my footsteps. (That’s his story, anyway. The poor guy got so many backstabs prior to that he might have just started hearing Spies everywhere.)
@SAC: The Pyro’s weakness is, indeed, wide open areas and range, as well as – and I wish this was a feature in more maps – water. The issue, obviously, is that a skiled Pyro will try to spend us much time as possible away from such areas.
The problem is the same problem that Scouts have; the popular maps with the tight corridors and numerous chokepoints make for great ambush territory with little to no escape. Throw in some afterburn and it’s a figuratively and literally hellish time.
I’d definitely like to see some more water features dotted around; just filling that trench from Goldrush Round One with water would be a really interesting way of countering the masses of Pyros that seem to turn up on the map toward the final point.
SAC responded on 04 Jan 2009 at 5:11 pm #
@noobie51:
You know what I mean. YOU FREAKIN’ KNOW WHAT I MEAN!! Don’t go all punctuation and vocabulary on me, man!
@Pyrit:
Yes. Clearly. But besides professional- okay, okay, GOOD pyros avoiding all those situations (unless you’re Don Newman), my point was there is no specific class the pyro is weak against, see Spy – Sniper, Pyro – Spy, Engineer (sentry) – Scout, Spy/Sniper – Heavy, and a bunch of others.
I’m not against Pyros; far from it being, they’re the ones who never check their backs anyway
, just in case you were arguing for your favorite class. If there’s anything I’m against, it’s the Train God. Go on. Condemn me. 
Also, as a side note, I used “professional,” not “pro,” because “pro” just sounds conceited and egotistical.
SAC responded on 04 Jan 2009 at 5:12 pm #
Also, the maps I play rarely have water, because it’s causes a ton of performance issues for custom-mappers.
We don’t need more water, we just need more guacamole.
Wyatt responded on 04 Jan 2009 at 8:23 pm #
I like the idea of a gun or item that prevents the sentry from seeing the scout for a short time. This wouldn’t weaken the sentry but still give the scout a chance to get by.
My idea besides the sapper gun was something that would distract. But what could it be, IDK, maybe a paint ball gun. Something that would gunk up the sentry for a short bit and would be very noticeable to anyone looking at the sentry when it happened.
Denakus responded on 02 Feb 2009 at 9:33 am #
a good pyro can still cause some decent med-long range damage with a shotgun.
valve aren’t making things easy. they are opening a new pathway to play.
they’ll make a mid range primay.
a more “stand-alone” secondary.
and new melee