Disapproving Of Unlockables
Oh crap, you just went to ÜberCharged.net and you found another contributor posting an obnoxiously long article you don’t want to read through. In that case, just go down until you see the bold print and go from there. Don’t you miss the old days when madlep only updated UC like once a week, if we were lucky? Now if you don’t go on for that long you’ll have ages of content to look over if you don’t want to miss anything. But I digress.
Some of you may know that I don’t approve of the unlockable content in TF2. For the longest time before the Gold Rush update, players only used the default weapons that the game came with. I’m not saying I haven’t had fun with the class packs, but I can never go back to playing TF2 the way it was before the class packs, before the significant changes.
In my opinion, they aren’t balanced and they don’t fulfill the role they should. Once you had the Blutsauger, the Über Saw, the Back Burner (back while it still had +50 health, Valve fixed this issue and I think it’s an acceptable alternative to the default flame thrower and not a blatant replacement), the Axtinguisher (arguably), and the K.G.B., you would never have gone back to the default items they replaced because the drawbacks were too insignificant. A 20% slower rate of fire as opposed to quickly building up an ÜberCharge in a few seconds? A 20% slower rate of fire as opposed to 100% Crits for five seconds? The unlockable content should have served as alternatives to win the battle for your team, not outright replacements. I can see only a few, such as the Kritzkrieg and Natascha, being balanced.
I’m aware that this topic isn’t new, but I have thought up of a realistic compromise that I think could be achieved.
This is what I’d propose to Valve: Allow servers to disable unlockable content. I was talking to my friend about this, and we decided to affectionately label them as “Orthodox servers.” When you spawn as a Heavy or a Pyro, you’re just left with the default weapons, and when you join a non-Orthodox server, you revert back to your previous weapon setup. Vanilla TF2, the way I believe the game should have been played, and TF2 can’t be enjoyed the way it was before the class packs were released. You may certainly disagree, but I think this is a reasonable compromise that wouldn’t affect the players who don’t mind the unlockable content and would appeal to those who do.
The only problem I could see is possible technical limitations; is it possible for Valve to allow servers to disable them? I hope so. I miss vanilla TF2. Valve once updated the servers so that they could have the ability to disable Critical Hits, to cater to the players who didn’t like Crits. Also, there may be plenty of people willing to play in no-Crit servers, but if there isn’t a signficant amount of players who would like playing on Orthodox servers, then Valve may not bother to do something about it.
Despite its significant shortcomings, I still go back to playing occasional matches of TF2 on the Xbox 360, merely because they don’t have the class packs. I’m not going to deny that they’ve extended the longevity of TF2, and I certainly appreciate the tremendous effort Valve has put in for the community, all for free, but I didn’t think it was the right decision. The only way I would have approved is if they released all the class packs when the game came out. However, TF2 would have been delayed even further, with endless beta testing for balance issues and glitches. That’s why I think they shouldn’t even have been released. Even though they may put in a considerable amount of effort working with new unlockable content, they can’t foresee all of the possible balance issues or conflicts with future class packs. If I may be so bold, you could almost call us Alpha-testers.
It doesn’t matter how long you’ve been playing TF2, your rockets do the same amount of damage as mine (unless you Crit, of course). Valve has mainly focused on what they see in public games, not caring as much for the competitive aspect, trying mostly to cater to more casual players. That’s understandable, but developing long term rewards, in my opinion, might create the game into a less newbie-friendly environment, and I think that contradicts what Valve has set out to do in the first place. Imagine players like madlep who perhaps only play TF2 for a few hours a week and can’t be bothered with spending time to unlock Achievements and the weapons. They’ll be at a considerable advantage and put off the game at best. I understand that these rewards are meant to be for the dedicated long-term player, but at this time I believe the class packs do not accomodate the casual players the way Valve may have intended them.
To summarize: Valve should work to balance the unlockable content more, but at the same time provide a vanilla mode for servers that disables unlockable content. I believe it will be a reasonable and feasible compromise.
Feel free to share your opinions and criticisms, I want to know what your stance on this issue is. Thank you for reading, and to madlep for giving me an outlet.
Stumble it!
Lawlingbawl responded on 20 Sep 2008 at 8:32 am #
I agree completely.
And not just because I’m the friend who came up the name for Orthodox servers.
(Lawlingbawl servers wasn’t quite catchy enough.)
n00bie51 responded on 20 Sep 2008 at 8:34 am #
Neither were segregated servers.
Orthodox servers ftw.
Steve responded on 20 Sep 2008 at 8:35 am #
Some of the unlockables have gotten a bit out of hand with their usefulness. It seems like Valve really didn’t put a whole lot of time in trying to decide whether some of the weapons would be an alternative or a replacement. I’m real happy with the new kritzkreig charge rate and I find myself constantly switching between the medigun and the kritz just because they really are alternatives in the sense that you may prefer one to the other depending on if you’re on defense, offense, or another medic has the medigun, etc.
The blutsauger however is a downright replacement. No more crits? That’s it? That only happens like 10 percent of the time anyways and even if I do happen to kill a few people with some lucky crits, I’d rather leech some health from people and make my run away safely. In fact, you end up being able to inflict more damage with the blutsauger just because you can stand in the line of fire longer if you can manage to consistently leech health, especially if you happen to be shooting at a heavy or an equally torpid target. The trade off would have to instead be something like, your constant health charge is twice as much when using the syringe gun plus the occasional crits (I think it’s 2 health/second at the moment).
Same thing with the ubersaw. The trade off is negligible when you have the opportunity to charge 1/4 of your uber per hit.
Everything else with the exception of the KGB (but really, who punches that often anyways?) are fairly good alternatives. The original fireaxe is handy for taking out enemy pyros, the flare gun is fun for sniper maps or if you’re bored I guess, the backburner’s good when you want some free kills [I still think it's lame (how about a shorter flame distance? but whatever that ship has sailed)] and natasha and the sandvich have found a good balance of usefulness between their counterparts.
As far as earning the achievements, well, the medic pack was way too demanding but I think valve has definitely found a good compromise now: if you want the weapons, then you really only have to dedicate about an hour or two for that class for the first 2/3 and if you’re hardcore, then you can earn the rest for bragging rights. The pyro pack and heavy pack each only took me about an hour and a half and if that’s too much time, then why do you even want weapons for a class you don’t play that often?
As long as the rest of the alternative weapons really are alternatives, then the rest of the class updates should roll out nicely.
n00bie51 responded on 20 Sep 2008 at 8:40 am #
Excellent points, Steve, I want and expect that Valve will do their best to balance out the unlockables to be alternatives. Also, I want Orthodox servers to play vanilla TF2.
I should have also mentioned the obnoxious class stacking with each class pack update, but I’m thinking they won’t be as bad as the Medic and Pyro updates were anymore.
Another thing: I don’t think the Flare Gun or the Sandvich are effective in competitive games in comparison to pubs. If both teams have a competent Medic (this is usually the case), then the Sandvich is unnecessary and flare shots will be healed away. The Sandvich is especially highly risky against organized, focused opponents and you’re left stationary for precious seconds that could very well decide the outcome of a match.
I suppose the Axtinguisher might be considered a good alternative, but it basically makes Pyros able to take down Heavies much more easily. I can rush a Heavy (not the proper balanced technique of ambushing) and he can rev up his gun and fire at me, but I may have a good chance of setting him on fire and axing him down. How often do you run out of ammo so that you’ll end up using the Axtinguisher against enemies that aren’t on fire? I would think you’re better off ditching the original Fire Axe in the end. That’s a significant difference from the original TF2 experience, and I want to bring the latter back.
Chrisyn responded on 20 Sep 2008 at 8:42 am #
In some terms of reason ill accept what you say’ing but otherwise the unlockables aresome kind of special. An example for that -> Bioshocks or Assasins Creed’s storyline or even any game with a nice storyline binds the player to play the game because you want to know what came up next ? What would happen to my hero so even if you dont have many time to play the game you’ll be happy if you step forward and see what comes next.
Otherwise yeah some of the unlock’s are unbalanced – but i think realy all players are able to get their weapon (Hey @ Unlock servers/Maps/Bots) for some it takes only 1-2 hours for some it takes some day’s weeks. its fair in my Opinion.
Overall ill hope you understand what i wanted to tell
=( .
iam German my english isnt very well
Chrisyn
Aevum Decessus responded on 20 Sep 2008 at 8:53 am #
I agree, the advent of the achievement servers, as well as the massive class stacking are things that are unfortunately a problem that I don’t think Valve accounted for when they thought these up, especially with the spacing of the releases now, as soon as 1 wave dies down, the next pack is coming out, starting the whole vicious cycle all over again. Hopefully once all of the packs are released, we’ll be able to go back to playing TF2 for the fun of the game, with teamwork, as opposed to the current system, and I would enjoy the ability to go back to the original system, pre-unlockables, if for nothing else, the ability to play with all classes even, instead of with 3 unlockable classes, and 6 without.
deux11 responded on 20 Sep 2008 at 9:25 am #
Well, hopefully we can filter out servers by unlockables enabled/disabled cause I would hate to not know what I joined until after I spent time finding a server and connecting to it. While at it, it’d be nice to filter servers by max. players, as I believe the original 24 is much more playable than the new 32 messes.
General Balls responded on 20 Sep 2008 at 9:52 am #
I’ve never really had much of a problem with unlockables since the requisition number of achievements was lowered. Now they’re fairly easy to get (for people who play that particular class regularly) and give the game that extra touch of longetivity.
I’ve argued about the Blutsauger and Ubersaw before, it’s no argument that they’re fairly overpowered compared to their alternatives, but you can also argue that some unlockables are what the classes needed. I, for one, cannot imagine playing the Pyro without the Axetinguisher nowadays. It compliments the class beautifully (close quarters combat), and is extremely useful while requiring a bit of skill to use successfully (effectively sacrificing any range you had for the damage output, *after* you’ve given away your presence).
But really, I don’t see the problem now. The game’s changed, and the players with it. Everyone expects the Medics to have Blutsaugers and Ubersaws, and account for that when fighting them. They don’t particularly overpower the class (even if they’re the no-brainer choice if you have them), and really, I think they make the game deeper and more interesting with their implementation.
In terms of noob-unfriendlyness, I agree with you only insofar as the Medic is concerned, as his bastard achievements are the only ones that’d keep someone stalled on achievements for a class they spend some time with.
I actually went into this section with a thought to actually *not* say much. That plan failed. :/
KoreRat responded on 20 Sep 2008 at 9:52 am #
But, would the ‘Orthodox Servers’ still allow for the Pyro’s Air Blast? Or any other changes Valve may make to the original sets?
n00bie51 responded on 20 Sep 2008 at 11:30 am #
I was thinking about the air blast, and I suppose I would have wished Valve put it in the game from the beginning; the air blast will be acceptable for Orthodox servers. Other updates to the classes should still apply I suppose.
nh4 responded on 20 Sep 2008 at 11:48 am #
The game is ok like that.
Arsenal IV responded on 20 Sep 2008 at 11:59 am #
Welcome to the family n00b
boX?.Monarch responded on 20 Sep 2008 at 12:07 pm #
As a TF2 clan leader I have had many discussions with those who run competitive leagues and there was a very heated debate when the medic and pyro packs arrived. Times have changed now and competitive players are used to the updates. Pyro was once a completely useless class in matches but now can be seen in many Arena tournaments.
Clan players will always farm the achievements. If something is released that unbalances the game it is normally disallowed in matches.
We have put class limits on all our public servers to prevent the madness at update time and this works well.
I would be inclined to convert one of our servers to vanilla TF2 but don’t see valve doing anything like this as it would negate all the hard work they put into these updates.
Himmelstoss responded on 20 Sep 2008 at 12:37 pm #
No, man, the unlockables are awesome. Without the unlockables I would have stopped playing TF2 ages ago. I barely played medic, pyro, and heavy before their respective class packs came out. The ubersaw, in particular, caused me to totally love playing medic – and medic used to be my least favorite class.
I am willing to accept that the blutsauger is a total replacement for the syringe gun (maybe they should increase the crit rate on the syringe gun or something). Nevertheless, it was probably one of the best things to happen to the medic. The medic had zero survivability without a medic buddy – which is pretty unfair to the medic, you gotta admit.
Along the same lines, in the situation that you’re without a medic buddy, the bonesaw is way more useful than the ubersaw – the slower fire rate really does add up – especially if you’re fighting fast classes like medics or scouts. The ubersaw is also useless if you get killed before you have the uber ready (note that if you get too ubersaw-happy, you *will* die before you have an uber ready).
By the way, I have actually seen one of these “orthodox” servers. I joined up and found I couldn’t use my unlockables. I instantly quit the server – if I can’t use the weapons that I have *earned* by *playing the game*, there’s no reason I should play on that server. Sure, have your orthodox servers, but I (and I’m sure, legions of TF2 fans) will never play on them.
Lawlingbawl responded on 20 Sep 2008 at 1:10 pm #
Wether or not you enjoy the unlockables, it can not be denied that they HAVE changed the game. And was it not a great game, almost perfectly balanced before? N00bie51 is stressing here that you can’t go back to the way the game was originally anymore. If you go from the PC version to a console version or vice versa, it’s an entirely different game. (Because I’m a huge nerd I came up with the term orthodox from the iconoclasty with the Catholic and Orthodox churches, y’know, the Orthodox sticking to the older, base teachings? Yeah…) Some people like it the way it was before. Just a simple server option. [I know it's probably possible already, I've seen "restricted_weapons" or something similar in one server, but that was for the melee sudden death. And even then I had my kgb when we all spawned as heavy.] That’s all. “What if I join a orthodox server by accident” There are HUNDREDS more. I already sometimes accidentally join ridiculous servers with crit rocket firing shotguns by accident. It’s my fault for not reading the server title and tags.
TL;DR It’s a simple option people, to bring us back to simpler times. WE DON’T WANT TO DESTROY YOUR UNLOCKABLES, OK?
Lawlingbawl responded on 20 Sep 2008 at 1:19 pm #
Also, n00bie51 one and I were at a party, otherwise he would have sat here to answer every single comment. Actually, the party only slowed him down, as you can see, he still answered one about airblast. XD
n00bie51 responded on 20 Sep 2008 at 1:59 pm #
Arsenal IV, I always felt welcomed by you.
Monarch, valid points. Pyros are becoming better, but I think that’s because of the air blast and the reduced fall-off in flames more than the unlockables (except probably the Axtinguisher). I’m wondering if they’re too effective in Arena, actually, especially in pubs. I totally appreciate Valve’s huge support for the community and all the effort they’ve done, but I’m thinking Orthodox servers would have small consequences, if any, to the players who don’t mind unlockable content. Personally, I would like to play in CP matches without them at all, but certain unlockables such as the Kritzkrieg seem legitimately balanced and I wouldn’t mind playing with those. Oh, but what do I know, I haven’t played a pug in the longest time…
Lawlingbawl and I were too busy being at a party and getting drunk and stuff like teenagers do. Not really. We were busy listening to Rick Astley and playing Guitar Hero. Lawlingbawl, I don’t believe he thinks we want to destroy the unlockables anyway.
The Über Saw’s ability to grant you twenty-five percent of an ÜberCharge is too significant. Yes, in the short-term, when you’re playing one-on-one against an opponent, a Bone Saw would be better, but that’s so trivial compared to the advantage an Über would net you. A Medic trying to get Über Saw happy is like a Medic just getting into a Bone Saw-frenzy, they’re both running high risks and aren’t doing their intended role of backing up the other classes (of course, I’m not saying that means they should never be used). The Blutsauger may help the Medic defend himself more easier, but he’s supposed to be a support class to begin with and have other classes to protect him while he’s healing them. “Unfair”? Couldn’t it be argued that Medics are meant to be vulnerable by themselves seeing as how they’re a support class that’s primary function is to heal other team mates?
Lawlingbawl also raises a good point; if Valve were to allow servers to disable unlockable content and you didn’t want to join Orthodox servers, then you should simply watch out for them like you’d pay attention to the tags for no-Crit, 100%-Crit, instant respawn, HLStats, etc. servers.
It was definitely far from even “almost perfectly balanced before,” though. However, considerable changes aside from unlockable content have occurred, such as the increased effectiveness of the Pyro and the air blast. I would like to play vanilla TF2 with those features.
I can’t deny that I enjoy getting Kritzed and clearing out rooms with my boxing gloves, but I miss TF2 the way it was before.
OMFGNinja responded on 20 Sep 2008 at 2:24 pm #
Noobie, I agree man. The unlocks have really thrown out the balance of this game, and I do miss the way things were back in the olden days. Being a spy now is so much harder since each class has gotten a new advantage over spies with thier new unlocks. There used to be a time when medics feared Spies, but now I see more and more medics hunting down spies than ever before. Kinda sad IMO.
n00bie51 responded on 20 Sep 2008 at 2:34 pm #
^ Saint Patron of Spies. I guess it just means more noobs for you to own and Sandvich-eating Heavies to back stab.
Roark responded on 20 Sep 2008 at 6:10 pm #
i think its a good idea to have that option, BUT, the medics new main weapon is a much needed tool. his original weapon is worse than the snipers sub, and that gun sucks big hairy balls. i think that the original medi gun should be deleted and replaced.
again, to each his own preference. i assume kill you with stickys anyway =]]] (proxys next!?)
Soylent Robot responded on 20 Sep 2008 at 6:36 pm #
I agree with some of your points. It is true that all the unlockables can be overwhelming for a new player, and that could cause frustration that their opponents keep killing them with weapons they can’t get yet. So vanilla servers would be a good thing, especially for players new to the game.
But i don’t think unlockables should be removed entirely. They open up new ways to play, when they’re balanced of course. I don’t think any of the new weapons are really unbalanced. True, I do take the Ubersaw and Axtinguisher, but only because they look cool, I rarely actually use them in a fight (I’m a Medic, what am I doing stabbing? And I prefer the flamethrower up close with the Pyro)
I do use them in the humiliation round after the round ends though
Poke responded on 20 Sep 2008 at 7:24 pm #
A very important thing you should notice about the unlocks is that they are all better, EXCEPT the main weapons (flares notwithstanding). The main weapons are perfectly balanced and they make the most difference.
The other weapons are only used rarely, and so making them outright better is not gonna make the entire class stronger (they already have a stronger weapon), but they just add an option to use a different tactic. The blutsauger isn’t gonna save your life against any opponent coming at ya (even a good scout can win against the best battle medic there is), but if you’re fucked you are slighly more likely to survive instead of being screwed. And if you manage to surprise someone you can get some uber out of it, but you’re not a spy yet, so this isn’t something you wanna do often (100% uber when you die isn’t that much better than none at all).
Pyro’s flare is pathetic (i know some people like it, but carrying it makes you weaker against most classes besides sniper, and personally i don’t like trying my luck against snipers in open areas to begin with), axtinguisher is awesome but you rarely get a chance to kill someone faster than with just the flamethrower (but it’s way more fun with it).
KGB is very rarely used, heavies just don’t use them because they’re heavies. Sandvich is great and fulfills what valve wanted to do (if you have a medic it’s useless).
So as you see, the alternative *alternative* weapons, unlike the alternative main weapons, are not really affecting balance at all. What i think changes balance the most are valve’s decisions to improve a class (and maybe in the future nerf some? i doubt it though), and they are usually right on the money.
Zorgulon responded on 20 Sep 2008 at 8:37 pm #
I don’t think anyone can reasonably object to the Orthodox server idea. Like with no-Crit servers, it has no effect on those who want to play with unlockables, while offering those who don’t an alternative.
I am personally pro-crit, and worked hard for my Übersaw/Axtinguisher/KGB, but I can see why people don’t like them. So I stick to regular servers and enjoy Crit rockets and Backburning.
The OP isn’t suggesting that Valve remove unlockables, but rather that they give an option to play without. I don’t think that undermines the hard work they put into these packs, as most players will still opt for their Blutsaugers.
n00bie51 responded on 20 Sep 2008 at 10:18 pm #
Thank you Zorgulon, that’s what I wanted to say.
Roark, the Blutsauger does the exact same amount of damage as the Syringe Gun, you can’t say it’s better outside of the fact that it heals the wielder with each shot.
Poke, you can argue that some of the unlockables don’t affect the game at all, but I wouldn’t be complaining about them if they didn’t. The K.G.B. and Über Saw are still outright replacements (unless you like to taunt-kill frequently) over the original.
Let’s say a Pyro attacks a Heavy (not ambushing, but assaulting in a way that the Heavy is fully aware of him and is revving up his gun). He may not have a good chance if he tries to use the flame thrower before the Heavy tears him to shreds, but if he sets him on fire and then quickly switch to the Axtinguisher, he’s got a much greater chance. That could change the tide of battle. How many times have the results of a game changed because a Medic was able to build up his ÜberCharge much faster than by healing players? How many times have I gone into a room and killed four players in a row with my K.G.B.? (This has happened numerous times, I can assure you.) Also, I have trouble understanding your grammar; “alternative *alternative* weapons”? “Main weapons”? Do you mean the Back Burner, Kritzkrieg and Natascha?
I don’t agree that all the unlockables are balanced or don’t have a significant impact on the game, I think Valve should release class packs that are more balanced, but at the same time, provide the classic TF2 experience that I missed from before the Gold Rush update.
Steve responded on 21 Sep 2008 at 5:11 am #
I think he means the alternative secondary and tertiary weapons.
The vanilla experience would be interesting and I don’t see any reason why it couldn’t be done. People should start putting some servers together and if it catches on then maybe Valve will make it an official option instead of people policing what people use in the server.
The only problem I see with an orthodox server, even if it’s made official, is how popular it will actually be. I can rarely find nocrit servers with more than 12 people on them.
I suppose it’s worth a try though. I don’t think anyone would get furious about it.
Hm… I wonder what would be the odds of finding a nocrit, orthodox server… well, let’s see, that’s 1/80 multiplied by 1/200 so…damn… it’s low.
n00bie51 responded on 21 Sep 2008 at 6:13 am #
Yeah, that’s the main issue to deal with. I was thinking myself how rare it would be to play in a no-Crit Orthodox server, as I like playing no-Crit.
Pyrit responded on 21 Sep 2008 at 6:55 am #
The hard thing is though is that sometimes it’s hard to know if something is ‘overpowered’ based on player skill/scenario. Sometimes you’ll be winning for the whole game and other times you’ll lose horribly.
Say for example, you keep getting killed by the same Pyro, because he’s using the Axtinguisher on you. Does that mean the weapon is overpowered, or the player is just too good?
I think the Blutsauger could be made a bit more balanced by giving it less ammo and maybe a slower firing rate, so you can’t leech health as quickly. However, I think considering the Medic had little to no defense before, it gives him a bit more of a fighting chance if the Medic needs to make a quick get away.
n00bie51 responded on 21 Sep 2008 at 9:37 am #
I don’t think the Axtinguisher is over powered, I just think the advantage of having guaranteed Crits on burning opponents is too significant to go back to the Fire Axe.
FunkyB responded on 21 Sep 2008 at 7:45 pm #
Is perhaps some of the problem related more to balance of weapons than their sheer existence? As a thought experiment, lets imagine medic, heavy, and pyro unlocks that are perfectly balanced. They are both equally useful in slightly different situations and they complement the class perfectly. I think such a thing would be great and calls to remove it would be silly. Would you still want rid of them?
Of course we don’t have that, we have perfect ones, *nearly* balanced ones, and some unbalanced ones, so I sympathise with your point. However, I’m not sure why it bothers you because Valve have been constantly tinkering with the classes. Why not just treat the Blutsauger as a class tinker (like removal of quick scoping) rather than an unlockable?
I see your point and removing unlockables on some servers wouldn’t affect others, but it does fracture the player base, which is something I imagine valve wouldn’t want to do. c.f. the whole no-crits fiasco.
n00bie51 responded on 21 Sep 2008 at 9:29 pm #
FunkyB, I never said I wanted to get rid of them. Of course the problem is also related to the balance of the unlockables, I said that I didn’t think they were balanced (in the third paragraph of my piece). But if Valve could somehow make all the unlockables perfectly balanced (which is difficult for me to imagine, considering the game had a number of problems without them), I would still miss not being able to play with just the standard default weapons.
The reason I don’t want to treat the Blutsauger as a class tinker is because Valve shouldn’t be using unlockables as a way to fix all their errors. It wouldn’t be balanced to have them replace the original because not all players have a Blutsauger; you could say it’s a matter of getting a few Achievements (which at this point for the most part don’t appear to be proper indicators of skill or something actually worth noting as an “achievement”) and then you have it. I hear people discuss about how they can’t wait for Valve to buff the Spy up with the next update because they think he’s weak. Valve shouldn’t be using unlockables that not everyone will have (so not all Spies will be balanced) to balance the Spy, they should be using regular updates to increase his effectiveness if they believe it’s a weak class. I think this also affects competitive gameplay because it leads to greater inconsistency.
You made a good point about fracturing the player base, that was in the back of my mind. But I wouldn’t call the no-Crits feature a “fiasco.” For me, it’s just hard to find a good no-Crit server sometimes, but I think it’s good that Valve had it in the game.
FunkyB responded on 22 Sep 2008 at 12:54 am #
“…because Valve shouldn’t be using unlockables as a way to fix all their errors”
Couldn’t agree more and a very good point. It seems like people are too accepting of unlockables to fix balance issues.
And yeah I probably shouldn’t have said ‘fiasco’ but I just like crits so don’t like no-crit servers.
n00bie51 responded on 22 Sep 2008 at 10:51 am #
Another example of Valve trying to balance classes with unlockables is the Back Burner. Back when the Pyro class pack was released, and players were learning to mess around with the seemingly underwhelming air blast, the extra fifty health to me was a blatant replacement and an atrocious attempt to make the Pyro much more powerful. It’s good that Valve removed it later on. Getting rushed by noob Pyros, and worse, actually losing to them, was one of the most frustrating experiences I had in TF2. It’s why I began to form my own opinions about unlockable content.
I certainly enjoy getting Crits myself and I try to catch myself whenever I want to complain about “noobs getting lucky Crits,” and it’s a part of TF2 that makes it quite interesting. However, there’s also the part of me that prefers consistency much more and doesn’t mind playing without them.
Arsenal IV responded on 23 Sep 2008 at 11:11 am #
Here is the thing about the unlockables. There are going to be tons of them. People aren’t going to approve of all of them. Its just the way things will be until TF3 or something comes out. I’ll say this tho. The backburner is “KINDA” cheap, but if you let a Pyro get behind you; you kinda deserve the outcome.
Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Crit | ubercharged.net responded on 23 Dec 2008 at 2:33 pm #
[...] 2 differs from most FPS’s. We are also aware of how some of these design choices divide the community. Not least among those is the presence of critical hits, affectionately (or not so affectionately [...]
nicksdrago0 responded on 30 Dec 2008 at 8:00 am #
although i like most of the new weapons, some i dont even use, as i use airblast often when facing other pyros, but pefer a long range weapon, such as the flare gun for back up.
however, i will agree some of them are downright ridicolus.
the medics new primary weapon makes him deadly in close quarters, destroying the fact his a support class and making him a offence. and think about it, about 30 health in seconds or the slight slimmer of hope that you might get a lucky kill if your fortantuate enough? the first weapon needs either more BASE damage or the new primary needs a lower rate of fire.
what i dont like about it either is you have to unlock them. a new medic has no chance against one who has the new primary and melee (i will take granted, the medigun seems best in most cases when it comes to assists), enourageing less medics.
n00bie51 responded on 01 Jan 2009 at 12:04 pm #
Yes, you don’t want to be rushing forward at a Medic that’s spraying dozens of needles into your gut, but I’d have to disagree that the Blutsauger makes the Medic “deadly in close quarters.”
New Medics don’t have it that bad, either. Yes, they don’t get to heal themselves with needles or charge up a Kritzkrieg with melee hits, but the Medic deals the most damage to the opposing team through the use of assisting his team mate with the standard invulnerability charge. Plus, in a 1v1 fight, a Medic with a Bonesaw is better off than one with an Über Saw, for obvious reasons.
Bob responded on 19 Feb 2009 at 8:56 am #
Fair is foul and foul is fair,
Hover through the fog and filthy air
n00bie51 responded on 19 Feb 2009 at 11:46 am #
I see what you did there. It was quite ominous and foreboding.
snorsorbet responded on 22 Oct 2009 at 2:04 am #
I like the new balance of Blutsauger, giving the medic either a good health regeneration or an ability to back out of tight situations without dying.
I agree with you on Axtinguisher, KGB and Ubersaw. Ubersaw could probably be balanced by giving less Uber per hit, KGB by less damage, slower rate of fire and shorter critstream, and Axtinguisher with maybe a slower firing speed and slightly lower rate of fire.
Oh, and the Sandman… Maybe adding the removal of double jump again and less melee damage on top of the current -30 health, but that would be changing the Scouts role from being a quick wasp to be a fragile, clumsy (comparing to a Scout with Bat) stunning machine.
The best thing would probably be redoing the unlockable completely.
Great article and great critisism which I share. I really hope Valve will
Tmwskweeky responded on 09 Nov 2009 at 1:57 pm #
It appears that this comment thread is fairly dead, but it seems as good a place to ask the question as any: what exactly is wrong with unlockables being all-around better than the standard weapons? It seems like a big point people make is that with the Ubersaw especially, and the Axestinguisher to a lesser degree, they’ve made the older weapon obsolete. So? That’s like saying you’re bitter at cars because they replaced the horse-drawn carriage: would you complain that your automobile doesn’t have a maximum speed of ten mph anymore? No, because cars are better. So why would you complain that the Ubersaw makes nobody play with the Bonesaw anymore? The Ubersaw doesn’t change the (good) medic’s playstyle, it just gives him something of a reward for extricating himself from unfortunate situations. And I can’t see why the Axestinguisher replacing the Fireaxe is a bad idea; it just makes it a bit more fun and challenging to play Pyro for those who want to go for it, and adds an extra level of skill to the class.
In short, just because some of the unlockables are out-and-out better than what they replaced doesn’t make them bad. If you see balance issues, that’s a different thing–although if you think the Ubersaw or Axestinguisher are unbalanced, then you’re obviously seeing them used in a way that I am not. Just because Valve had an entirely better idea this time, it doesn’t make it a bad idea.
n00bie51 responded on 09 Nov 2009 at 2:46 pm #
Tmwskweeky, you must understand some things.
The original beef I had with unlockables was that:
A) Unless you’re a newb who didn’t play TF2 when the Medic update came out, you would remember that the requirements to unlock the Blutsauger, the Kritzkrieg, and the Über Saw were much difficult than it is to unlock a weapon today. You had to unlock all 36 Achievements in order to unlock the freaking Über Saw; Valve changed the requirement down to 22.
B) Having new unlockables become flat out superior upgrades over the original content they wouldn’t be as much of a problem if everybody HAD the unlockables to begin with.
You see the problem with unlockables “being all-around better than the standard weapons”? This story was published in a time when the gap between players that had unlockables and players that didn’t was great enough. Now, the issue is less severe since Valve gave the class packs subsequent to the Medic’s much easier Achievements to unlock, and lowered the required amount of Achievements in order to acquire the unlockables.
Still don’t get it? Imagine two players, A and B. Player A has been playing TF2 for a while and has unlockables that are “all-around better than the standard weapons.” Player B has just started playing the game and has no or some unlockables. Player A has significant advantage over player B and wins over him not necessarily because he has more skill but because he has better weapons. It’s just not FAIR for new players who have a harder time winning and are discouraged because other players have better weapons than them, although this is no longer the case for the most part. Hope that answers your question.
Tmwskweeky responded on 10 Nov 2009 at 12:43 pm #
Ah, condescending examples, how I love thee. But that makes sense. I just didn’t get from the article that your beef with the weapons was that some people didn’t have them; to me it seemed that your complaint was only that they had completely phased out some of the original weapons. Which is, as I mentioned before, somewhat ridiculous. Although I have to say, I didn’t get the Ubersaw until Valve did the whole random item getting thing, and while I love it, I can’t say that I ever felt tremendously disadvantaged by not having it when playing as Medic. I don’t really go for the saw that often anyway: I prefer to let my medic buddy get the aggressor, or I go blutsauger to try to stay alive better and keep what Ubercharge I already have. Anyway, good to hear your explanation, and try to save “Still don’t get it?” for when I tell you I don’t get it. I’m not a fucking chimpanzee, and can understand complex ideas like “Some people didn’t have weapons.”
n00bie51 responded on 10 Nov 2009 at 4:44 pm #
It wasn’t intended to be condescending, Tmswskweeky, I try to be as clear as possible (because miscommunication on the Internet occurs as often as possible) and I apologize if I offended you. But hey, I’m glad you understood what I said.