Engi unlock speculation!
Frankly, I’m pleased as punch (ho-ho) about this news. But now the inevitable question becomes, “What about the other classes?” If our resident white, New Zealand Jesus’ Grand Unified Ubercharged Unlock Theory is correct (and you know it is), then the Engineer is getting his due next. Let’s examine the previous updates, and make our baseless speculation! We’ll be establishing a pattern out of the past two updates, and applying that pattern to the Engineer.
The Medic
- Primary: The Blutsaugher
Benefits: Health +3 per hit
Tradeoffs: No critical hits
Bottom Line: Makes the Medic more feasibly survivable on his own in combat. - Secondary: The Kritzkrieg
Benefits: Faster Ubercharge, 10 seconds of all-critical glory
Tradeoffs: Ubercharge doesn’t grant invulnerability
Bottom Line: Allows for greater offensive capability, encouraging death-dealing rushes - Melee: The Ubersaw
Benefits: 25% Ubercharge per hit
Tradeoffs: Slower swing speed
Bottom Line: Encourages Medic combat, as well as speeding up offensive charges because of the increased Ubercharge frequency
Bottom, bottom line: The update drastically improved the Medic as both an individual combat class and as an offensive support class- offset its weaknesses, as it were.
Now, let’s examine our more recent update, and see if we can find a pattern:
The Pyro
- Primary: The Backburner
Benefits: 100% critical hit chance when used from behind
Tradeoffs: Loss of compressed air blast
Bottom Line: Improved Pyro’s ability as a stealth class and added greater capacity for quick kills, but lost direct combat ability, leading to more strategic use of the class. - Secondary: The Flare Gun
Benefits: Greater long-range accuracy, allowed for long-range ignition of targets
Tradeoffs: Drastically reduced mid-range damage capability
Bottom Line: Longer range and ignition capability allowed for more tactical playing of class, forcing entrenched players to be healed or else burn to death. Less direct combat ability, more strategic ability. - Melee: The Axetinguisher
Benefits: 100% critical hit chance on burning enemies
Tradeoffs: 50% damage against nonburning enemies
Bottom Line: When used in tandem with the Flare Gun, the Axetinguisher makes a powerful combo- it allows greater capacity for quick kills during an infiltration, causing- again- more tactical playing of the class.
Bottom, bottom line: This update considerably decreases the Pyro’s direct combat ability in favor of infiltration and tactical playing, giving the Pyro greater ability as a thinking man’s class.
So, we can see that the Medic’s primary weaknesses (offensive support capability, individual combat capability) and the Pyro’s primary weaknesses (Unskilled class, long-range accuracy, stealth incentives) were both addressed in the update. Presumably, the Heavy’s primary weaknesses (ammo hog, useless without a Medic, escape ability) will be addressed in the update, which is so close in coming as to make speculation moot. So what are the Engineer’s primary weaknesses?
- Entrenched class- Sentries are nonportable
- Little direct combat ability
- Extremely vulnerable to spies
Based on these, we can see a pattern- increasing the Engineer’s direct combat ability seems to be the main focus of the update, so let’s see how we can accomplish that.
The Engineer
Primary: The Boltgun
Benefits: Modified shotgun fires bolts in a tight pattern, causing high damage
Tradeoff: Engineer loses 5 metal with each shot, forcing him to either harvest enemy metal or stay near dispensers. No metal, no shotgun.
Bottom Line: Would allow better offensive capabilities for short rushes, and better sentry defense against Demomen, Heavies, and Soldiers.
Alternate Primary: The Skeet Shooter
Benefits: Key binding allows Engineer to whip out his Skeet Shooter from any other weapon, and pop off a single Scattergun-style shot which always crits on an airborne enemy.
Tradeoff: Never crits otherwise.
Bottom Line: Allows better quick defense capabilities, instead of having switch weapons through the menu, and better defense against, say, flying Demomen.
Secondary: The Good Ol’ Boy
Benefits: Pearl-handled revolver is more effective against lighter targets like Spies, and can knock Sappers off of Sentries at range.
Tradeoff: Slower rate of fire, slower reload time
Bottom Line: Allows greater anti-Spy ability at the cost of regular combat efficiency.
Melee: The Sucker Spanner
Benefits: The Sucker Spanner has an alt-fire mode which vacuums in scrap metal.
Tradeoff: Considerably lowered damage output.
Bottom Line: Allows greater Engineer guarding due to never needing to go back for metal, but less anti-spy capability due to loss of effective melee weapon.
Sentry: Walker-Bot
Benefits: Allows for breaking Sentry down to Level 1 or 2, and giving the Engineer full remote control over the Sentry. This means that the Sentry could walk into the enemy base, firing as it goes, but only as a level 1 or 2. Control can be stopped at any time, whereupon the Sentry becomes stationary and automated.
Tradeoff: The Engineer is defenseless while controlling his Walker-Bot, and the Walker-Bot can only be upgraded to level 2 while stationary. It walks at about the same speed as a Pyro while level 1, and about the same speed as a Heavy while a level 2. The Walker-Bot cannot be upgraded to Level 3.
Bottom Line: Allows for greater mobility at the cost of power, decreasing its defensive potential while greatly increasing its offensive ability.
Dispenser: Le Distributeur
Benefits: “THAT DISPENSER IS A SPY!” Le Distributeur can recharge a Spy’s cloak, and also buff teammates up to 125% of their health. Visually, it appears to wearing a cardboard mask with the enemy logo on it, and is smoking a cigarette.
Tradeoff: Le Distributeur has a lower health and slightly slower recharge time than the regular, fat, American dispenser. Pah! I need a smoke.
Bottom Line: It increases the Engineer’s combat support ability, with the buff aiding in rushes, and the cloak helping to get Spies back to fight sooner.
Teleporter: The Uberporter
Benefits: Grants 5-second Ubercharge to people coming through the teleporter.
Tradeoff: Greatly increased recharge time, lower health.
Bottom Line: Greater offensive rush capabilities, less staying power.
Bottom, bottom line: My hypothetical update would vastly increase the Engineer’s anti-Spy abilities, as well as his offensive rush abilities. However, it would also decrease his defensive abilities- a fair tradeoff, to my way of thinking. Everyone be sure to spam Valve with these ideas when idea submission for the next unlock comes out!
Rorschach's Cadillac on August 19th 2008 in heavy weapons guy, team fortress 2
Stumble it!
oldmeme responded on 19 Aug 2008 at 8:41 pm #
The Pyro may have been boosted to the smart guy class, but that does not mean noob players can still blindly rush in
I loved the Bolt gun of all the weapons, although I would like it more if it used eight or ten metal per shot, as metal can be found nearly everywhere.
Nice post either way
Jimminy Cricket responded on 19 Aug 2008 at 9:25 pm #
An excellent set of ideas. Well thought out and fairly balanced looking; at least on paper… Good job!
Theminipanda responded on 19 Aug 2008 at 9:54 pm #
The bolt gun should use more metal since the engineer is usually camped near a dispencer.
Mr. Noobinator responded on 19 Aug 2008 at 10:30 pm #
i don’t think i like the Dispenser idea. its completely original, never seen those kind of dispenser even in GameFAQs board, but dispensers are built/swarmed by team mates in a hidden front (eg. top right tunnel at Dustbowl 1 2nd point.), putting another engi’s original dispenser would just simply kills the tradeoff.
the Uberporter is brilliant. it forces engies to place the entrance tactically and as further as possible to make effective use of the 5secs uber, and their team to protect the single spot where the uberporters exit are located. i can imagine 5 scouts passing through 5 uberporters and charging at the CP at dustbowl 2….ubeeerrrrrr!
Arsenal IV responded on 19 Aug 2008 at 11:45 pm #
Jeez, a walking sentry. Thats all we need. Giving it a first person view would be neat. But that would seriously overpower the Engie. The Spy has it hard enough being a walking target for Pyros an Engie Wrenches.
Matt responded on 19 Aug 2008 at 11:55 pm #
Nice ideas, especially the walking sentry, however would you be able to control it from your spawn?
TwoTwoThree responded on 20 Aug 2008 at 12:04 am #
The spy would have a field day on engineers with walking sentrys. God forbid the new slowdown on heavys is enough to deal with ’spray the croud, kill the straggler’ it was bad enough before with pyros lighting up everyone on the way through.
What about a super repair wrench? Do less mele damage but repair sentrys / buildings faster.
Or ‘dummy’ buildings. They origionally had explosive dispensers — why not have fake ones that detonate. (obviously you’d build one or the other)
What I’d really like to see is a Jukebox for all those idiot engineers that stand around doing nothing but ho-downs.
Toxoplasma responded on 20 Aug 2008 at 12:34 am #
The teleporter seems overpowered…
Also, what happens if the engi is sitting on his level 2 sentry when he begins controlling it? “Yeehaw!”
D responded on 20 Aug 2008 at 12:36 am #
Amazing ideas caddilac
Headwoünd responded on 20 Aug 2008 at 12:59 am #
I don’t find it in the bottom bottom lines of the other class-updates that they gain advantages against their counterclasses. sure, the medic received quite a push regarding his offensive/self-defensive abilities, but he needed those, but he most of the time still is a sitting duck for snipers and spies.
thus I see no need for the engineer becoming stronger against spies or demomen – as frustrating as that may be sometimes, but there are other classes which should assist the engineer against those threats, playing in a team and such.
an increased mobility along with perhaps losing some sentry damage and being completely vulnerable while carrying a sentry (maybe being able to drop it in an instant and destroying it) sounds considerable though.
Coded One responded on 20 Aug 2008 at 1:37 am #
I do have a problem with some of your ideas. The wrench is my biggest problem. The standard wrenches primary function is, and will always be, to repair and upgrade buildings. When you give the alt-wrench less damage output (which isn’t the Engies primary function of the wrench) and encourage tanking by sucking ammo, you’re not encouraging a different playstyle, just buffing a current one.
Also, the walker-bot is overpowered. The level 2 sentry has nearly twice the DPS of a level 1. I think that the walker-bot also encourages the Engineer to hole up in his own base and let a bot do all the work with no trade-offs to him.
Also, the skeet shooter was taken directly from Tom Francis at pentadect.
Some of them are pretty good, but they just don’t all fit TF2.
Postie responded on 20 Aug 2008 at 1:48 am #
What if the engineer could build 1 real sentry, and 1 fake one? The fake one looks like a real sentry, and is upgraded in the same fashion as a real one, it also turns and make the lock-on beep noise, but only fires blanks. Perhaps it could also be rigged to automatically explode if a spy tries to sap it?
By itself, it would be kind of obvious, but if you had a real sentry and a fake one guarding a point, it wouldn’t be immediately obvious to the enemy that one is fake.
Sanns responded on 20 Aug 2008 at 2:26 am #
Intelligent ideas, but I don’t foresee VALVe implementing anything so radical, especially for the buildings. These will most likely be left as-is, I think. And the weps are more likely to be minor side-effects, like gaining metal upon dealing damage or faster-upgrade/lower-DPS types of things.
Mr. Noobinator responded on 20 Aug 2008 at 2:38 am #
Postie: actually, that’s a great idea. a fake sentry which behave just like the real sentry, but firing blanks. i can imagine me n my friend building sentries to defend dustbowl3-1 using first level sentry and occasionally swap positions, to confuse enemies. then hearing the other team screamed “HAXHAXHAXHAXHAXkthxbai” and rage quit.
Jezus ftw responded on 20 Aug 2008 at 2:46 am #
If you look at the Engi loadout screen in TF2, you’ll see that just his primary, secondary, and melee weapons are there. Nothing about his buildings. This is the same with the spy. I don’t think they’ll change his buildings, just his weapons.
loafaries responded on 20 Aug 2008 at 3:29 am #
I like the idea of the bolt gun. I think I prefer that to the skeet shooter, merely because the affects of the bolt gun make it more “special for engie”, while the skeet shooter would be better for someone like a scout or a soldier.
A walking sentry isn’t a very good idea. If a spy can backstab a medic and a heavy, a spy can sap a sentry that’s moving as slow as a heavy. There would be no way for the engineer to get to his sentry fast enough to repair it, assuming he’s in a quiet corner somewhere, most likely nowhere near the front lines. I think it would be overpowered, and the drawbacks too steep.
As for the teleporter, that would be encouraging scouts to use it, and that should never, EVER, happen.
Cadillac responded on 20 Aug 2008 at 4:03 am #
Loafaries, that’s actually why I like it- it prevents the Engi from getting too drastically overpowered, because he has to stay near his Walker-Bot. Besides, he could always knock the sapper off with the Good Ol’ Boy. Keep in mind, I thought these up at 3AM and decided to run with ‘em.
I like how every idea (except for maybe the Boltgun) has both its fans and it’s detractors. It’s good to hear the criticism more than the praise- keep telling me I’m wrong! If my predictions are no good, it’ll help me improve future ones.
Mr. November responded on 20 Aug 2008 at 6:03 am #
if you take a look at the engineer section of the loadout menu it will show that there are only options for the engineer’s weapons and no unlockables for the build PDA, same with the spy, it seems there will only be unlockables for the knife and revolver and not the sapper or cloak or disguise kit
Mr. November responded on 20 Aug 2008 at 6:04 am #
that’s unfortunate cause the walkerbot sounds like a blast, however maybe it should be made so that engi’s can’t control it from the respawn room
Slipstream responded on 20 Aug 2008 at 6:12 am #
Personal opinion on each weapon;
Boltgun – Brilliant idea. An Engineer relies on Metal, so balancing more power for an exchange of valuble Metal is a genius concept. Should the Engineer chase after the enemies and shoot them down or keep his Metal and defend his sentry?
Skeet Shooter – This seems pretty useless. Airborne enemies are never much of a threat to the Engineer if he has a Sentry, since SGs can kill airborne enemies in the blink of an eye. Seems more suited to another class.
Good Ol’ Boy – Spies already have enough trouble defeating Engineers due to spychecking and tanking placements, but the ability to remove sappers from a distance is useful. As such, I believe instead of having extra power against Spies, it should do extra power against only disguised Spies. This encourages them to cloak and remain out of sight, improving the mindset of both the Engineer and his arch-nemesis. Otherwise, interesting idea.
Sucker Spanner – Meh. Vacuuming up Metal is pretty pointless since Engineers are rarely nearby scrap weapons unless they have detonated their own buildings. I’ll be honest; I don’t like it.
My personal idea would be a Spanner that repairs at a higher rate, but removes the ability to speed up construction by hitting it as it builds. This means the Spanner is ideal for Engineers who focus on defense and single sentries while the Wrench is more suited to Engineer who focus on offense and build several sentries.
Walker-Bot: NO NO NO. Please, God no. I can’t say much about this except the word ‘overpowered’. Spawn killers, griefers and noobs would have a field day with this.
Distributer: Uh, I think you took that “Spy is a Dispenser” joke too far. Doesn’t seem too useful in comparison to alternative ideas. Not much to say on this except the European jokes. You yankee prick.
Uberporter: I’m divided on this. You say this is meant to offer greater rushing opportunities, but if so, why does it have a much longer recharge time? With some fixing up, this could be a good idea. Maybe.
=====
I’ll be honest, I feel only the Bolt Gun, a revised version of the Good Ol’ Boy and the Uberporter (maybe) could be good ideas. Otherwise, I feel this is defeating the actual purpose of the Engineer. :/
anona responded on 20 Aug 2008 at 8:47 am #
What if they just broke down the sentry into 3 level 1 sentries? that would make it easier to use in open area with the trade of weaker guns
BathrobeAssassin responded on 20 Aug 2008 at 2:27 pm #
Excellent, informed, non-biased look at the current set of unlockables. It’s rare to find that anymore.
Dark Master responded on 20 Aug 2008 at 6:32 pm #
I like some of your ideas, but I think you got some of the info about the Medic weapons wrong.
The Blutsaugher increases a Medic’s survivability, but does not improve his combat effectiveness. Critting with the syringe gun is the only way to effectivly kill enemies at full health; plus his 40 shot clip almost always crits on at least 5 of those shots.
The Kritzkrieg is the perfect “defensive” choise. It can turn a target into an absolute monster of death, but also makes you public enemy number 1. If you are surounded by enemies, you are going to be killed by them very fast, and sentry guns and ubercharges will ruin your day. Plus the Heavy is the ideal target for the Kritzkrieg and he is a “defensive” class.
The Ubersaw encourages medics to attack weak classes and weakened enemies. Attacking solgiers and heavies with the Ubersaw while they are at full health is suiside.
Josh responded on 21 Aug 2008 at 2:08 am #
Just what we need, stronger engineers and fewer uses for the already near-useless spy.
The engineer doesn’t need more crap he can use to bog down the gameplay and turn it into a sentry killing/rebuilding contest, especially while the Scout and Spy are in serious need of attention.
Josh responded on 21 Aug 2008 at 2:25 am #
Just for fun I’ll respond to each of your ideas.
The Boltgun- would only be useful after the sentry, dispenser and teleports are already up. That’s the point where you need a spy, and giving the engineer a more powerful ranged weapon will just make his job harder.
Skeet Shooter- How often are enemies ever in the air? I wouldn’t trade the shotty for this.
The Good Ol’ Boy- Let’s just take away the spy’s sapper altogether.
The Sucker Spanner- It literally takes 1-2 seconds to pick up all of the scrap metal in an area. I wouldn’t trade my powerful melee weapon for this, ever.
Sentry: Walker-Bot- What’s the point of upgrading if that makes it walk so much slower? And what’s the point of a walking machine gun turret that walks as slow as a heavy. I thought we already had that- yeah, the heavy.
Dispenser: Le Distributeur- ALL dispensers should refill the spy’s cloak. There’s no reason that the cloak should take longer to refill than it takes the spy to respawn. The overhealing actually sounds pretty original and useful.
Teleporter: The Uberporter- A problem I noticed while trying to get the Five Second Plan achievement is that enemies are rarely within a five second walk of the teleporter. If the tele is so close to enemies that a five-second uber would be useful, then it probably won’t survive very long. There are a few exceptions to this, such as that one tunnel with the drop-off on Granary, but teles should really do what teles do best- getting the slow classes back into the fight quicker.
BigJugs69 responded on 21 Aug 2008 at 3:00 am #
Good read, n1.
Personally, I’d like the engineer to be able to pick up and move his buildings. Of course there should be some form of penalty for doing this. Obviously the item being moved would have to be shut down and in a deactivated state to be moved. The shutdown and startup time can be tweaked for balance. Further penalties can be a metal cost to do this and/or a reduced running speed whilst travelling with the object.
Could mean bad things for spawn camping though, in that case just make the dispenser moveable?
gladly awaiting the glaring hole in my reasoning to be pointed out
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VoxjuillBuB responded on 29 May 2009 at 12:32 pm #
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