Just bend over and take it: Weak classes now useless.
Valve are going to have to seriously re-think the way they are bringing out these updates for the classes. I was all for one or two at a time, spread out the content and make the replay value stretch out along with it. But with the first update of an offensive class, I feel now they have to throw them all in at once.
I had another draft written up with my opinions on the pyro weapons, but I have just come from the worst hour of TF2 I’ve ever played. As I have stated scout is my favourite class, but with these updates, no matter what situation I have found myself in, I am now completely useless against a pyro. With 225 health and the “fixed” rego issue and the damage falloff being altered, I am always dead within a good couple of seconds. In situations before the updates If a health pack was around I could get myself out of trouble but now It is just pushing away the inevitable. Some of you may argue that this is “how it is meant to be” but I urge you to walk a mile in my running shoes and see exactly what I mean.
I have watched pyros take down a heavy and his medic time after time. No not a rare thing but to see it constantly? I’ve seen now super buff 225hp pyros take down level three sentries and their engineer. I haven’t bothered trying to be a spy recently because of the pyromania going on, but I doubt it is a pleasant experience either. Medic on a public server? forget it.
What is annoying me the most is that it has taken an essential part of the game and practically thrown it out the window: Class balance. No longer is there pros and cons that can be properly exploited. Right now you have a super class, able to take down everyone, and not just when used by the right person.
Something needs to be done and fast, or I may be having a vacation from TF2.
Stumble it!
Jon responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 1:19 am #
I know what you mean. Scout is my favorite class and since the update I’ve had to adjust how I play. On the plus side it’s forcing me to play even smarter, but yet I find myself retreating from fights more and more. ;x
LOOY responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 1:20 am #
Actually, its just that people are used to being able to kill pyros with any class no matter what they are doing, pyros now kill anyone up close but if you keep your distance they are pretty easy to take out. They can take out SG’s but only near corners, engineers should factor that into their placement. They kill a Heavy + Medic? the heavy must of been a free weekender.
Poke responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 1:23 am #
I think the issue now isn’t that the pyros are stronger (they are, but they were always kinda weak, especially versus soldier, the most prominent offensive class), but rather the problem is the quantity of pyros.
A pyro is best at close range, so normally if you take your distance you’ll be fine (just don’t get your own crit rocket reflected at you). But with 4-5 pyros per team at the moment, it’s kinda hard NOT being close to a pyro. Yes, you see heavies taken down by pyros because there’s nothing out there but pyros.
FunkyLlama responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 1:25 am #
I think the classes are more balanced now than before; the pyro is less overpowered compared to soldiers and demomen than soldiers and demomen used to be compared to the pyro. Besides the scout has always been pitifully weak; it’s just that now he’s getting repeatedly killed by a different class.
By the way, I suspect that you’ve forgotten that it’s the free weekend. This on its own alters the game massively – it explains some of the (good) pyros taking down (noob) heavy + med combos.
I think that it’s not as bad as it seems; people just need to learn to back off a bit from the new king of close range combat.
Poke responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 1:26 am #
I should add i’m also a main scout and i’m simply waiting for the pyro rush to cool off, because pyros are always problematic for a scout (being on the verge of death is “problematic”)
david responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 1:26 am #
One word: Teamwork! Going one on one against a pyro at close range is supposed to be a win for the pyro. That’s what they’re good at. A better tactic might be to lure him into the open and have one of your long-range friends take him out.
In the picture accompanying the post you have a demoman trying to glass a pyro. If this is supposed to demonstrate your point, it doesn’t. The demo is mainly an ambush class, if you let a pyro get that close to you you’re dead anyway.
Kidijs responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 1:28 am #
As I expected – someone will say “nerf pyro” soon enough.
I agree that “The Balance” has been lost, but I must say – pyro really plays more smoothly now, and throwing opposing pyros up in duel maps and not letting them land (okay, they still kill me, but that is really slow with their flare guns) is more fun than critting a bunch of people from behind with your 50hp buff and an insane amount of damage.
For me – I still can’t take out a heavy + medic.
And think of it from the bright side – the flare gun and the buff will surely make pyro a quite viable hero in Clan Matches.
noclip responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 1:31 am #
Picking up on the point about releasing multiple class updates at once, I think it will be an absolute necessity for the Engineer, Sniper, and Spy updates. If any of those is released on its own, the game will be rendered completely unplayable for a week.
Direction responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 1:31 am #
When did I say to nerf the pyro? Plus I didn’t add the picture.
ImpactedLegend responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 1:34 am #
While I’m yet to see such a level of power that you suggest from the new Pyro I do feel that this addition has been highly detrimental to the balance of TF2.
The Medic update may have brought hundreds of players into a class they wouldn’t have given a second glance, the main change that brought was either easy kills or a steady supply of healing depending on who’s team you were on.
In contrast the Pyro is a class played generally with suicidal abandon, by inexperienced players, and had to gain new features for his existing primary weapon to make the alternative in any way detrimental.
Valve’s decision to make the new achievements far more accessible has meant that almost all Pyros can be expected to have the new gear within a fortnight or so; the Medic weapons were all viable alternatives with obvious weaknesses, but the Backburner has lost no abilities from the classic flamethrower, essentially.
In contrast, his other two weapons are somewhat lacklustre, or at very least have clear weaknesses.
The flare gun is far less useful for an aggressive Pyro than the shotgun, but can be very useful to scare Snipers, Engineers and Medics; the Axetinguisher is the weakest melee weapon by default, but requires the Pyro to lose the element of surprise to risk using it. Bear in mind that the Backburner does 400 DPS at point blank range to the back, in contrast to 195 in just under a second.
In short: the Pyro is first and foremost a destructive class, if this new breed of Pyros, tougher than Soldiers, continue to be the majority class then this bodes ill for all future updates.
I just can’t wait to see all the idiot Spies when his update is released.
madlep responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 1:37 am #
Yeah, the picture was me when I was reviewing it prior to posting. I recycled one that was already on the site (credit to General Balls).
It was more just to liven up the post visually than to make any explicit point. Apologies for any confusion.
vbigiani responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 1:37 am #
Um, I played a game as a Red Scout on Dustbowl this morning, the enemy team had 3 pyros out of 11 people, but I still ended up with ~1.5:1 kills per death, and I’m not a great scout either. Must depend on the vagaries of quantum state
[TE] Chacalito responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 2:26 am #
I’m gonna have to disagree as far as the state of medic affairs. I haven’t noticed a change in deadliness of pyros, they are still the bane of medics, given that now they waste you if they come from behind, but i mean, what do you expect if you dont have zone control of some type.
I cant say anything to the fate of scouts, I’ll agree since I’ve just heard that pyros instantly take 50 health off of them. Spy is actually still possible, since pyros seem less likely to spy check for some unknown reason.
But! you put up an important point that I was thinking earlier, each class just becomes more desirable, and the other classes get left in the old tier of power. On the other side of this, it is ideally making otherwise unplayed classes more desirable/powerful. The onus is on Valve to not make a super soldier, like the backburner pyro.
And just a comment on the Backburner; I wholly expected it to take away regular crits, but its only drawback is the lack of a compressed air blast, something that is quite difficult (for me at least) to gain skill with. Strange balancing Valve, strange indeed.
supremesonic responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 2:40 am #
I did think to myself that the amount of stuff the Pyro got in the update could make the class more powerful. I was glad to hear that the air blast couldn’t be constantly fired in a way that could just stop any rockets or enemies constantly, but it still doesn’t change the fact that at times a Pyro can get away with being suicidal or a soldier being an expert shot. How? A simple click of a button.
Then the backburner? Ouch. Any good Pyro attacks from behind with the flamethrower anyway, so basically Valve is rewarding this with almost instantaneous kills. But the extra 50hp as well? Why? That practically removes any element of risk from flanking or attack! And what if an enemy simply turns away from the Pyro for a second, when the Pyro has stupidly rushed and survived due to high health? Instant crit storm, that’s what.
I can’t say any of this for sure, of course – I don’t play the PC version. The concept does seem flawed to me, though.
(I posted this in the forums as well).
Spaced responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 3:01 am #
What I think we’re all losing sight of here is that this is an awesome opportunity for playing Heavy
As long as you aren’t playing like you have blinders on and you know how to control your location, the worst you have to worry about is the occasional flare gun spam.
God help us when they release the sniper update, though…
Polysynchronicity responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 3:23 am #
It’s actually not too hard to play Spy right now – but that could be the free weekend. I’ve broken a couple of my records so far.
mikemil828 responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 4:17 am #
//With 225 health and the “fixed” rego issue and the damage falloff being altered, I am always dead within a good couple of seconds.//
That’s only with the backburner, with the regular flamethrower the health stays unchanged. If a pyro can get within the pretty narrow cone where the backburner comes in handy while you are a scout, you deserve to die, same with all the other classes. Anyway as a career pyro I’ve always taken out scouts pretty easy patch or not, perhaps you merely just came across pyros that actually know how to play the class. Just ambush them hit them with the flames as long as possible, then switch to shotgun and blast them out of air.
As for pyros taking out both medics+heavies it’s more of a case of incompetent heavies than the patch. A heavy on his game won’t have any problems mowing down a pyro extra hp or not.
//Then the backburner? Ouch. Any good Pyro attacks from behind with the flamethrower anyway, so basically Valve is rewarding this with almost instantaneous kills.//
Because if a pyro is able to sneak up behind you, he won, backburner merely makes the process quicker. Before the patch, the pyro could take some serious damage before finishing the person off even with the ambush or in the case of soldiers, the fight will usually end in a draw regardless of the pyro’s better tactics.
//And what if an enemy simply turns away from the Pyro for a second, when the Pyro has stupidly rushed and survived due to high health? Instant crit storm, that’s what.//
The back burner only crits in a narrow 60 degree angle behind the back (for reference backstab works in a 179 degree angle), it’s extremely difficult to get in that 60 degree angle when the enemy knows you are there, you might survive thanks due to the extra hp, but only just, and you certainly won’t be criting all that much.
//that at times a Pyro can get away with being suicidal or a soldier being an expert shot. How? A simple click of a button.//
You have to be pretty good with timing in order to reflect a rocket. At long range it’s pretty easy, at medium and close range it’s pretty difficult. All the soldier needs to do is if the pyro is trying to rush him with his flame thrower is pelt the pyro with shotgun shells and once the pyro gets close switch to the rocket launcher and gib the pyro, if the pyro switches to his shotgun, switch to the rocket launcher and spam away, easy.
/Backburner has lost no abilities from the classic flamethrower/
It doesn’t have the classic flamethrower new airblast ability, a pyro using the backburner is a sitting duck at long range, a pyro using the regular flamethrower is now somewhat less so.
Nalidor responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 4:22 am #
I’ve been able to take down lv3s and their accompanying engys for a while now. You just need the right approach (A corner that’s preferably behind it usually, but there’s also other stuff e.g. for taking down sentries at the far left of goldrush’s stage 2 cp 2 you can jump from the rock it’s hiding behind) and then you can barely outstrafe it. The update’s not made it easier imo
Dark Master responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 5:35 am #
I do think that the pyro needed to be powered up, but I don’t think the damage falloff should have been eliminated completly. I use to be able to survive a confrontation with a pyro as a medic if I had the Bloodsuger on him the whole time, I can’t anymore, its a garantied death. This makes me think that Valve eliminated the only reason I use that weapon.
Also, its much easier for a pyro to take down a heavy, they don’t even have to get close to the reving heavy and they will still win as long as the heavy doesn’t crit.
The other thing that really bothers me is that if I’m fighting somebody in close quarters as a solgier and I hit them with my rockets, I’ll almost always be killed imidietly afterwards, or I’ll die from my own rocket.
flamingsnot responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 6:26 am #
Yeah I noticed the grief today for the 1st time back as engineer after a day of pyro unlocking. My sg’s kept dying, peed me off.
Therealjoe responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 6:59 am #
My favorite class is pyro but now whole teams being pyro makes it hard to kill people. Valve should release all the achievements at once then release the new weapons because then all the people who play tf2 regularly will have them all in advanced. This would give it a bit of balance when they release the new weapons and upgrades because then the newbies who join just for the updates wont be as powerful and then all the good players wont have to have terrible gameplay for a weekend.
Forscyvus responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 7:10 am #
I’m sort of sensing that some people feel entitled to beat pyros with rockets or survive a pyro assault as a medic. I think that was the problem! Before the update, I would be consistently killed by soldiers, heavies, and even medics with the blutsauger if they knew what they were doing.
Now, one on one, a soldier usually dies if I have him in a corridor, but I usually die if he has some room to work with and sees me coming, fire wins close up, rockets win far away. I think the imbalance was that rockets used to also win close up.
Medics should NOT kill a pyro one on one, unless the pyro is agonizingly dumb. It seems to me that some medic players discovered that you could blutsauger an attacking pyro to death and are just miffed that they can’t so easily do that anymore. I think the imbalance was that medics COULD kill pyros, not that pyros now kill medics.
Heavies should always kill pyros unless the pyro gets behind the heavy. Before the update I could only kill a heavy about 1 out of 4 times, now I can if I’m wielding the backburner, but only if I come from behind. Speaking of the backburner, I do think +50 hp is too much, +25 would be great, the elimination of the compression blast (which is AWESOME) is a perfectly balanced drawback, and in my experience, the crits from behind are not as easy to do as a spy backstab. I find that I have to be pretty much directly behind.
The only thing I don’t like about the new pyro is the flare gun. I think it’s way underpowered. My suggestion would be that when you light someone ablaze with it, the fire wouldn’t go away on its own. I think that makes it the perfect sniper counter by forcing them to abandon his perch. It even would make a good medic counter, forcing them to retreat or get another medic. But I don’t know much about it and I really want to see the numbers on it.
ANYHOO, I’m still playing the game, and I’m still having fun with it. But if you don’t like it, don’t play it.
ireshine responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 7:31 am #
I though the point of these new weapons that can be unlock ,was to add a different strategy of game play to the class. e.g. with medic you could choose to be invincible or to deal Crit. for a few seconds.
In others words it would give and take , advantages or disadvantages from your class.
But with the Pyro it looks like there is only advantage with his new weapons
ireshine responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 7:37 am #
I would like valve to release more achievements for maps i.e. Goldrush
and maybe release achievements very 2 week or once a month, small and basic achievement ,
e.g.
so many kills per class 100 , 1000 ,control points, sentry etc…
RJ-Pilot responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 10:17 am #
I have been noticing an increase in the amount of playtime i’ve spent on fire recently… I’ve also noticed more Pyros adopting the run in and set fire to as much stuff as possible, and when eight people are playing as Pyro, it’s disturbingly effective.
Personally, I’m taking advantage of the situation and using the time to finally get around to grinding all those medic achievemnts everyone has forgotten in the heat of the moment….
Pun intended.
Josh responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 10:29 am #
The entire POINT of the update was to make the Pyro stronger. Valve acknowledged that the pyro was underpowered, and they buffed him. Now people are going to BAWWWW because he isn’t a free kill anymore.
Out of the three new weapons, the Backburner is the only one worth equipping. I still prefer the shotgun for its ability to finish off a flaming, retreating enemy, and switching to the Axtinguisher after lighting up an enemy is usually a waste of time, because they’d either be dead if I kept using the flamer or I’m gibbed before I get a chance to swing.
Of course some people want to weaken or even remove the only useful weapon the Pyro got. I admit, the backburner might be a wee bit overpowered, if only for the extra 50 health. If the pyro simply had its health boosted to 200, no matter which flamer he used, I’d be happy with that. But frankly, 175hp just isn’t enough for a class that has to take as much flak as the pyro does.
With regards to the OP, I’ve actually been having a great day with the scout. I agree, however, that the weak classes do needs boosts- the weak classes being Scout and Spy.
P. H. responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 12:57 pm #
I agree with Josh and some of the other posters – the Pyro was underpowered and frequently useless before the update, and now he/she is the king of point-blank attacks, as Valve originally intended. Maybe they could drop the backburner’s health boost to +25, and add a little damage falloff (not as much as before). Anyway, they have improved one of the weakest classes, although they do have to work a little on the others, the Scout and (especially) the Spy.
If there is one thing I don’t like that much is the Soldier nerf – now using his main weapon at short range equals suicide. What if, by misfortune, he hits a cloaked Spy with a rocket?
TwoTwoThree responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 1:54 pm #
I’d like to point out that with the new pyro update a few major changes have altered game play — but the problems are not specifically with the changes in weapons. But the changes in player mentality.
When pyro’s were considered ‘free kills’ due to falloff damage and low general damage, people did not play them in mass groups. They have always been amazing at taking out a level 3 sentry. Time and time again I as a player have circle strafed one to wipe it, and its engineer, off the face of the earth.
The ‘Medic + Heavy’ problem isn’t due to the pyro update. Its simply because of the wave after wave of pyros that are coming at you. This is more obvious on insta-spawn servers. Where its simply easier to charge full pace into the enemy flaming away, respawn — and storm your way back in to do it again. At times on 2Fort I have seen situations where people haven’t even finished burning, before the SAME pyro is jumping back of the barraks to finish the job.
The immediate backlash is ‘omg pyros are too good now’ and more people play them. More people play them, you end up with frontline flame cannons and suddenly the ‘pyro masses’ are amazing. I assure you the same thing would happen if everyone went rocket soldier. Or medics. Or engineers. When people start to run more in groups, they become more dominant.
I myself play a heavy with a medic often. And just last night I killed a wave of 6 pyros. Dying on the 6th solo pryo. This is a stress on any medic who will die in seconds after regardless of the pyro updates or not.
All in all it is a great update, here is why.
Axtinguisher vs Ubersaw –
Both are useful weapons in there own right. However at WHAT point, would you really USE the non-version of the ubersaw? You can claim that its because you swing faster. But you still get crits, which are its main feature in any case. You get more Ubercharge instantly. And face it, its only downside is you can’t swing as fast. Anyone in combat isn’t going to stand still anyway. By the time you swing it again you were proberbly dodging ANYWAY.
The axtinguisher is clever in that its not really that much better. You can set people on fire then axe them, but the relevance of this is pretty low considering the damage that both flamethrowers do at point blank. So why use the axtinguisher? Same reason you’d use the axe. Your out of ammo, or cause you can.
BackBurner vs Blutslaughter
Anyone that tells me that the Blutslaughter isn’t just an out right mandatory upgrade is wrong. Blutslaughter is outright the most necessary upgrade for a medic hands down. There is zero reason not to use it.
Backburner on the other hand, while it guarantees a crit on the back. You loose the critical ability to reflect projectiles. It seems like a bizzare trade of but if your hanging around your base. Backburner with its increased hitpoints and crit to the back ability is far more suitable due to medics that tend to be on the front lines. Not in the base with you trecking around looking for spys.
The new flamethrower with the blastback is incredible untill you face a veteran player who shoots rockets at your feet. I’m not sure what the deal with this is but it doesn’t alter its uses, blowing players and projectiles around can carve a path rapidly through a group of people. Countless times a reflected crit rocket has wiped out a barricade. Making both weapons VERY useful.
Flare Gun vs Kritzkrieg (SP?)
The flare gun and Kritzkrieg are nothing short of ‘valid’ alternates for a useful gun. I’ve heard a lot of arguments about the kritz being ‘useless’. This simply is not the case. An ubercharged heavy can not take down a sentry gun with an engineer behind it. A kritz heavy can do exactly that in seconds. There is a huge difference — and makes for a good, useful and not extremely popular alternate.
The flare gun is much the same. While it offers a much needed ‘better’ long range option. It also provides it to the people that really believe they need such a thing. While at mid range I heartily believe the shotgun is far more useful, the flare gun ( when used correctly and with the axtinguisher ) is nothing short of a blast.
So all in all, I think they did well with the pyro updates. The idea of ‘balance’ has always been in such a way that classes had there roles. Not that classes could take out every other class. A pyro’s role has always been to be king of the front line combat. And now he is. A heavy still takes a pyro down in seconds. A scout can still out range and out class a pyro. A sniper isn’t going to die a miserable horrible death to a flare gun. And an engineer isn’t going to loose his entire building alotment to one pyro. (give or take ubercharge) I don’t see a problem.
I don’t doubt further updates will cause the same ‘unbalance’ but I think, for a second update. Valve has taken the considerations of the players ( with unlocks and achievements ) and weapons ( great balanced option changes ) into great consideration and did an excellent job. I look forward to the next update.
/Gentlemen
Dogmeatstew responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 2:30 pm #
As it were the falloff is actually completely gone, effectively at least. Some of the CP kids tested it earlier today. The problem with the backburner is firstly the terrible detection on turned backs and subsequent overflow of crits onto all surrounding targets combined with way to much health. There’s just something wrong with the pyro having more heath than the soldier and further more this additional health makes pyros rather difficult to kill as 2 rockets just won’t do the trick.
ShanDogs responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 2:35 pm #
The only real issue I have with the pyro update is that seem to have made the demoman’s sentry busting abilities obsolete.
ShortyMcNostril responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 5:23 pm #
I think the combination of all the buffs is a bit much.
The backburner is good idea IMO (if a pyro catches you that close with your back turned, you ought to be fried), but the health boost seems unnecessary. I’ve always played a lot of pyro and getting close has never been a problem; the problem was always the lack of killing power that allowed soldiers to just fire two rockets in your face before your weapon could kill them, while you stared hopelessly with your flamer stuck up their nose.
The compressed air blast and the backburner both address this issue, so a pyro who didn’t have trouble closing in before can now become a killing machine because he is sure to have a much much greater chance of surviving those encounters even head on, especially considering that the effective range of the pyro is now longer thanks to the lack of damage fall-off (and the soldier nerf that makes them take more damage from their own shots, making them die faster when they try to shoot those rockets in your face).
I honestly don’t see the reasoning behind the 50 health increase, and I feel that without it the update would be quite a bit more balanced. If I’m coming at you from the back with the backburner and I get two rockets in the face, I deserve to die because I blow chunks. If I’m coming at you from the front with the BACKburner and I get two rockets in the face, then that means I don’t know how to play the damn class.
Pinko responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 5:32 pm #
It’s 2:30 here, so I’m not going to read all the other posts like I normally do.
I’m taking a break from TF2. These pyro achievements make the pyro INCREDIBLY overpowered. I can kill soldiers with the critfire from the backburner before they have enough time to turn around. Scouts? HAH. Heavys? Turn too slowly for me to care, even if they do magically kill me I’m likely to have done enough damage to them to kill them after I’m dead.
If anyone needs me, I’ll be on WoW, where these kinds of things are expected.
Pinko responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 5:35 pm #
Oh, also: Free Weekend = Icky.
Bo Steed responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 6:39 pm #
In all actuality, I don’t believe the Pyro update is as game shattering as some people seem to believe. Yes, it unbalances things a little bit. So did the Medic update. When they came out, the Pyros cried about Medics needling them to death at full flame. Now the tables have turned, and how sweet is their fiery revenge.
I think one of the main reasons Pyros seem so overblown crazy deadly, though, is sheer volume. Everyone wants to be Pyro. Hence, every time you turn a corner, there’s a Pyro letting out a muffled chuckle as he/she reduces you to smoldering plasma. All they have to do is close the distance and they take advantage of their close range dominance to melt you. Facing a veritable Zerg rush of these guys, it’s hard to take them all down before one slips through and sets your world to burning.
I haven’t really specifically noticed too much in the way of Pyros being so much better at destroying Engy buildings than before. Not due to the update, anyway. There just seem to be more of them playing smart. The only times my stuff has been destroyed is because I set it too close to a corner, or they came at it from above. Both things they could already do before, there were just less of them doing it since they’d play more defensively. Another thing I’ve noticed is that Medics seem to be more inclined to Uber Pyros. I’ve seen more glowing lumps of fiery death dashing my way recently than any time before, where Ubers used to be reserved for Heavies, Soldiers, and occasionally Demos when assaulting a particularly fortified region. They’re now discovering that an invincible Pyro can be just as deadly, and sometimes more so.
In the end, though, it’s really not that bad. I’ve been having a grand time tossing stickies into choke points and dominating Pyros playing with their new Backburner. I’ve racked up dozens of kills lobbing grenades down corridors, and only rarely do they get close enough to burn me if I’m playing smart. (Any time they do get the drop on me, I deserved it anyway.) On their end, though, they can totally mess with me by blasting air on my carefully placed explosive trap or knocking a crit nade back at me. And as a Sniper I’ve painted the wall with the grey matter of many Pyros, but also had to strategically retreat from my sniping position as I burst into flame from a burning hot glob of tar. They’ve simply stopped being an “ambush only” class (though still excelling at it).
Every class will have their “massively unbalanced” period as they get their new stuff. I’m sure down the road a little ways, Pyros will be crying about Spies backstabbing them from the safety of their flame-retardant disguises, or Demomen blowing them to bits with buried proximity mines, or whatever ends up pushing the balance back against them again. I’m sure there will be something.
Not to mention the fact that in a few weeks after the novelty wears off (and people adjust tactics for the new Pyros), people will get back to other classes and stop the “Burning Legion” crap. (Yes, I totally did just make that joke. You’re welcome.)
General Balls responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 6:46 pm #
“Heavys? Turn too slowly for me to care.”
Excuse me? Have you even played TF2?
Anyone who hasn’t unplugged their mouse can turn as fast as they want with the Heavy, it’s what the sensitivity options are there for. :/
The problem isn’t the newfound power of the Pyro (which was sorely needed, in my opinion), it really is that a significant change was made to him and people haven’t adjusted their strategies yet. Servers having so many Pyro’s doesn’t help much either (though on my second day of playing after the update was out I found a lot of servers that were pretty much back to normal).
What I’m saying is that we cannot say how overpowered something is with minimal experience with it. One thing I remember off the Medic update were people going nuts about how Double-ubering Medics with Ubersaws were going to dominate the game and destroy balance, and how much of that do we see today?
When everything starts to settle in, and people get back into their natural game, that’s when we’ll see what’s overpowered and what’s not. But seriously, the Pyro *should* be overpowered in CQC, with such minimal range available to him what would be his point otherwise?
Divorce responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 8:01 pm #
As a predominant spy, this passed week I was dreading the idea of a mass of pyros. After the update I spent 10 minutes on the achievements, got them all, went to join a regular server. Then I felt useless. Sure I was at the top of the team, but it didn’t matter. I was just another pyro in the sea of flames. Then, just for humor, I wanted to see how fast I would fry as spy. To my surprise, I was still at the top of the team… What’s the explanation? If you want to hide a tree, put it in the forest (Irony: lumberjack achievement). Anyway, sorry to the good spies who were too afraid of fire, you missed out on something good.
And a bit more on topic: at first I thought the pyro was a total tank that could do anything, but it’s really the person behind the pyro. There’s still going to be noob pyros as much as there will be pro pyros, and I think the wave of noobs has died down significantly now that free weekend has come to an end.
Vertigo responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 8:56 pm #
As a player that mains Spy, it was nice that I didn’t get spy checked this weekend, but it wasn’t nice that I had to dodge a sea of flames.
The Cake IS Yo Mamma responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 8:57 pm #
As a pyro player most of the time, i find the update ridiculous. when i got on TF2 at about 9am i found everyone having the weapons and even as a pyro i was constantly dying. the new weapons are completely unbalanced and mean that everyone who has a backburner can kill pyros and anyone else in their way far too fast. I can’t wait for the game to be full of all classes instead of super pyros all the time
Notger responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 10:31 pm #
As a 80%-Demoman player, I enjoyed the Pyro-update.
Everyone was playing Pyro and the Demoman was the King of the Battlefield (or anyone not playing Pyro, for that matter). For me, it was like harvesting time.
What has changed for me? Not too much, really. Ok, the Pyro now kills faster at close-range and that is ok. But he still has troubles against a well-placed sentry, he still dies to grenades, rockets, sniper bullets and whatever.
All in all: Good job, Valve. Again.
Lol responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 10:40 pm #
Learn2play noob.
This blog is so shit, all they do is keep crying about how much it sucks. A pyro still can’t take out level 3 sentries. Thats just lying.
Think I’ll stop coming to this site, never saw blogs this shit and whiny.
CRY MOAR PLEASE
Direction responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 11:52 pm #
Oh I was waiting for one of these replies. Thankyou “Lol” you have made this post worth it. See this is the ONLY time I’ve “cried” about how “shit” the game is. Fact is I love the game despite this update. Yes it has annoyed me and it may make me play less at this point in time, possibly until it dies down pyro wise or a new update is implemented. Either way I enjoy it enough to write about it on a “shitty” blog site.
Maybe I’ll have to rack up another few hundred hours on the game to Learn2play, or I could just troll image boards all day and abuse people who decide to throw their opinions out in a vain attempt to find people who have a VALID opinion on the matter.
Mighty Chives responded on 24 Jun 2008 at 12:03 am #
I just checked the update news today after reading this having been playing the game since the updates came out. Soldiers don’t get their 40% damage reduction to their own rockets anymore!? I knew something was fishy.
However, that hasn’t stopped me from pretty much dominating whole servers of Pyros – Backburners & Air Blast or not. Funnily enough, when I died a rare death once yesterday, two Pyros got Revenge at once, and both got the Nemesis Achievement.
But really the only time I die to Pyros is when I think they’re going to die but they don’t. As in I’ve just launched them into the air and air-rocketed them, and forgotten that doesn’t quite do the trick anymore. Backburner isn’t so bad, I’m a pretty cautious player – the kind that listens to footsteps and sound effects carefully, and has to know exactly who is around me at all times.
Josh responded on 24 Jun 2008 at 12:55 am #
It’s funny, for all that the pyro has been buffed in this recent update, and the many times that the Demoman and Soldier have been nerfed since the game’s release, those two are still more powerful. The airblast hasn’t changed gameplay much; the only time I’ve been killed by a reflected grenade or rocket, I was playing as a pyro. The reflected rocket was from an allied soldier. In the future I’ll try to avoid standing next to friendly soldiers spamming rockets.
The huge and high volume of complaints on the minor soldier nerf seems strange to me. You know longer have a 40% damage reduction against your own rockets, when you aren’t rocket jumping. Okay, big deal. That’s easy to fix- don’t shoot at walls you’re standing next to. On the more specific complaint, “But what if we hit a cloaked spy standing in front of us?”- How often does this actually happen? For me, far less than once per round. If it does happen, that’s bad luck for you, but worse luck for the spy. I can’t count the number of times I’ve been randomly gibbed out of nowhere while cloaked, after going through a lot of effort to sneak past the enemy lines undetected.
On to the backburner, and the health boost it gives over soldiers. Yes, 50 is too much. 0 is not enough. At least a 25 health boost, in my opinion, is necessary for the pyro to be viable as a close range class, otherwise it’s back to getting gibbed at close range by soldiers. I don’t know why having more health than a soldier should be objectionable for a class that specializes in the range where allmost all weapons do their maximum damage. Soldiers have a rocket launcher. It has long range and shoots in a straight line. It’s not like you have to run into the thick of battle or even risk getting hurt, you can hang out with the snipers and give fire support while the pyros and heavies move into close range. The only reason soldiers have a higher health in the first place is to compensate for rocket jump damage.
On the damage falloff of the pyro’s flamer: it needs some back. Yesterday I noticed that a moment’s passing over by the far end of the flamethrower caused me 50 damage, plus the continous burn damage. If there was some falloff, maybe 50 percent (still half what it was before), only at the farthest end of the flame, then this would be much more fair, especially to scouts.
On the new pyro changes… « The Theory of Gaming responded on 24 Jun 2008 at 1:34 am #
[...] Light classes? Light classes are screwed. Pyros will drop your health into “You’re going to die even if you run away” range within about 1 second now… as a medic or soldier even you’re screwed, so scouts, spies and engineers don’t stand a chance. [...]
Pad See Ew responded on 24 Jun 2008 at 2:36 am #
The air compression is the best thing ever for the Pyro, and everyone has it. The only thing unbalanced right now is the players…especially the people who want to grind/farm when you want to game. grrrr
Skill Stab responded on 24 Jun 2008 at 4:59 am #
Something that I think could vastly improve the way the class updates are implemented at little to no extra difficulty on Valve’s part would be an element of crossover between the achievements – ie. the pyro achievement to kill zoomed snipers could also be a sniper achievement, and the medic achievement to uber the various classes would also count as achievements for the classes in question (This makes sense, as knowing how to kill a class is an important part of learning how to play that class well). If this was done, then the need to get the achievements unlocked by the other classes would make the class stacking as a result of the update less severe.
Rawket Lawnchair responded on 24 Jun 2008 at 5:05 am #
Now I know every one’s been saying this weekend should have been hell for spies, but in all truth, I was dominating. Now I’m a Pyro player normally, but instead of spending all of my time trying to light other pyros on fire, I decided to go back and give some love to my non-sniper classes that haven’t gotten a lot of play time recently. All I really had to do was disguise my self as a pyro, and no one thought twice. It was amazing. Sure when they found me, I got killed, but that’s expected with a spy.
Also, I don’t see what the big deal is with pyros being able to kill some one without ding themselves. Heavens forbid they actually become balanced.
Sanns responded on 24 Jun 2008 at 8:10 am #
As a common pre-patch pyro-user, I have mixed feelings about these updates.
First off, I think the backburner-crits were much needed. It seemed fairly ridiculous to me that the “ambush” class was less-suited for ambushes than either spies or heavies: spies have stealth, heavies have more HP, and both can kill someone at close range before their victim can react. That said, the +50HP seems to be license to bum-rush, which totally negates the need for ambushing in the first place. No (unbuffed) class other than a heavy should be able to take 2 gernades/rockets/melee/etc, IMHO.
Second, I think the air burst is a good feature, especially considering its applications against ubers and sticky-spam, but it needs to be slightly buffed. The cost is high (at 25/burst, you can’t really use it much more than twice without feeling it), the cooldown is long (if you mistime one rocket in a string, the next comes before the CD is up), the range is short (you need to be within detonation range of a sticky in order to move it), and the knockback is very minor (I was only able to breakup one uber all weekend, and that was because I blew the medic off the bridge in Dustbowl).
Personally, I think the knockback effect should be doubled, the cost reduced to 20/burst, and backburner should grant a minor speed boost instead of a HP boost. Usually ambushing means taking the indirect routes, and the time lost is the #1 deterrent for this. Plus, speed would still grant additional survivability in escape-options without turning the pyro into a tank.
Sanns responded on 24 Jun 2008 at 8:27 am #
Rawket Launchair:
“Also, I don’t see what the big deal is with pyros being able to kill some one without ding themselves. Heavens forbid they actually become balanced.”
The big deal is that, if you bias the encounter towards your class’s advantage, you expect to be able to do better than a draw. E.g., a sniper is pretty ineffective at close range, but they are deadly at max range and that is expected. Since a pyro is useless at long range, they expect some type of advantage in close range–especially if they get the drop.
Sanns responded on 24 Jun 2008 at 8:46 am #
I can deal with the 50 health, id prefer 25, but hey, the problem i have is that the 2 flame throwers look very simular, and its hard to tell what your opponents potential health is, which affects conflicts, eg could i finish him offf? or should i run away?
FireTongue responded on 24 Jun 2008 at 9:58 am #
Daph iff Wullsit! Murphle murph wot dawth murphel wund see deph WUUUUUURN! BWAH HAHAHAHAH!
Pinko responded on 24 Jun 2008 at 10:32 am #
General Balls: “Excuse me? Have you even played TF2?
Anyone who hasn’t unplugged their mouse can turn as fast as they want with the Heavy, it’s what the sensitivity options are there for. :/”
Yeah, but most of them think that they need to try and aim at where you were at a moment ago rather than where you are. About 70-80% of the time as Spy, Scout, Pyro, or Medic I can take on a heavy if I ambush him.
Anony1200 responded on 24 Jun 2008 at 12:04 pm #
It’s much easier to be a spy these days,contrary to popular belief.The pyro disguise is expected,but now that everyone’s a pyro in the first place,the only way you could be immediatly noticed is if you get noticed by that person or they have a backburner or if you just went into your base.
Parsefone responded on 24 Jun 2008 at 4:00 pm #
The Backburner is massively retarded. 225 makes the Pyro second only to the Heavy in healthiness, only he’s twice as slow. Most Pyros I’ve seen with it don’t even bother trying to ambush people with it. Why should they? With that health they can pretty much toddle through all but the most serious of firefights, and they only have to touch you with their flame tip to do full damage.
The really sad thing is that the air blast is a great idea. It’s an all purpose tool that requires skill and cunning to use. It levels the playing field for Pyros vs. Soldiers and Demos and frankly it’s great fun to launch people here there and everywhere. Brilliant idea Valve- except NOBODY’S GOING TO USE IT. Something that is situational and requires skill vs. 50HP and flaming backstabs? No contest. Why would you come up with an original idea which would transform what a class is all about and make it obsolete in the same breath?
Give the Pyro +25 regardless of weapon. Reintroduce damage fall off on the flamethrower. That, friends, would be balance.
Vertigo responded on 24 Jun 2008 at 4:27 pm #
agreed, pyros shouldn’t be able to take half of someone’s health by flaming them for half a sec (and not even from behind, and to note I am including burn damage in that half)
GenRancour responded on 24 Jun 2008 at 6:49 pm #
I think the next achievement pack should just come out already so people will leave the Pyro alone.
Jeez. >.<
General Balls responded on 24 Jun 2008 at 10:22 pm #
“About 70-80% of the time as Spy, Scout, Pyro, or Medic I can take on a heavy if I ambush him.”
And that’s the thing, Spy’s and Pyro’s are supposed to be able to kill a Heavy if they get the jump on him, and even with the backburner it can take a good part of a second or more to kill him (if overhealed, which they usually are), enough time for a good one to turn his 500DPS monster onto your person.
And there is the problem of getting into an ambush position in the first place. 225 health or not, a Pyro cannot charge a Heavy who knows he is there, same goes for a Soldier. All things considered, in direct combat (ie atacking on Dustbowl/Gravelpit) a good Pyro is better off with the original Flamer. Nothing is so disruptive as knowing that half your rockets/grenades could be flying right back at you.
png responded on 25 Jun 2008 at 12:50 am #
It seems Valve are paying attention after all. Just about an hour ago, they have lowered the bar for the medic unlockables. The requirements for getting them are now equal with pyro’s. I guess that will make some people to go back and play more as medic, to try the new unlockables, instead of keep grinding for pyro’s.
Maybe they make mistakes as we all humans do, but I think this process of constant fine-tuning of the game mechanics, much of it based on the feedback they receive from players, is unique in the gaming world today. I don’t mind getting frequent patches if they don’t break anything and install seamlessly. And I find it quite reassuring. It’s the proof that there is somebody taking care of the game and its community. At least until we have TF3
Now I would like to have the time to play a bit and try my new shiny medic toys, but that will have to wait a few hours yet…
BigJugs69 responded on 25 Jun 2008 at 1:50 am #
I really like the update.
That said I find the soldier nerf has taken it a little too far (from the point of view of a soldier player of course!). I also think the removal of the damage fall off was a mistake, it noobyfies the class somewhat.
First off, I agree with the points about mass groups of pyro’s dominating and a need to change one’s expections of win % versus pyro’s (they were too weak before). I think I’ve played past that point though.
What I’ve not seen mentioned here is that the soldier is the second slowest class, you have to pay a lot of attention to maintaing the correct distance to enemies. On the otherhand the pyro is bloody quick! On open flat terrain the soldier has the advantage, however if the pyro is good a dodging they can still get in close. On broken terrain it’s about even. However on some maps there are sections (e.g. tunnels in stage one of dustbowl) where you just cant control your range, and with the self-damage nerf the pyro absolutely humps you.
It seems that the pyro now has a much greater effectivness at it’s primary combat range than the soldier has at its primary combat range.
Regards
TwoTwoThree responded on 25 Jun 2008 at 2:58 am #
I read deeper into all the (reasonable) thoughts of the people in this post. First I forgot to thank Direction for taking a reasonable and valid approach to the whole pyro situation. (its far to easy to scream nerf, rather than constructive criticism) anyway.
To set the scene, your average game of 2Fort. The perfect place to verse the new Pyro sheep brigade as they storm across the bridge and through corridors; of course I am greeted with exactly what I expect. As a wall of flame leaps from the battlements turning the bridge into an inferno blazed gauntlet and setting alight the corridors of both bases in a back draft of burning murder; I find myself and my good friend Hyrbrid staring down the bridge heavy and medic at hand with the delightful howls of ‘CRY SOME MORE’ and murderous laughter. Finally we find ourselves overwhelmed by wave after wave of murderous pyro intent.
Confused and frustrated as to how such a class could possibly advance on a heavy firing directly at them; I logged off and left. Damning the new ‘uber pyro’ updates and the amazing new health increase while sympathizing with the soldier class loosing there close range rocket capability (in sight of a new high hitpoint incredible damage mele ranged class arriving) it seemed perhaps I was wrong about my post earlier.
And then I paused — mid bite through a sandwich I might add — and a horrible horrible realization dawned on me. Had I become just another one of the sheep brigade that feels that fighting fire with fire is the only way to win? I finished my sandwich (it was a good sandwich!) and logged back on to assess my situation.
Pyros on each team, ours had 5. Theres had aproximately the same. Medics on our team, 1. Medics on theres? Couldn’t tell you through the inferno. Snipers on our team. None. On 2Fort, we had no snipers. The situation looked much like this.
Pyro
Pyro
Pyro
Pyro
Medi c
Heavy
Spy
Demoman
Now needless to say. With all the pyros running into each other it was easy to become veraciously disorientated. But I called a few of my friends and asked them to set up as snipers, a few medics. One or two demomen and one or two soldiers. Good soldiers mind, ones that know how to fire at your feet, launching you into the air ready for another rocket.
At first my friends slowly trickled in. I made absolutely sure that there was no form of communicated teamwork; these are just ‘experienced’ players that are good at there roles. And I noticed something interesting.
- Most pyros never made it to the bridge.
- Pyros with the blastback still blew themselves up when rockets were fired at there feet.
- Demomen covering the entrances made pyros nearly obsolete.
- Spys had a field day moving quietly through the ranks dispatching engineers and snipers slowing us down.
I realised then; a beaming light through the atrocity; it isn’t the pyro updates that are making the game what it is currently. It is actually the players who insist on fighting fire with fire.
I am yet to see the claims of a pyro taking down a good heavy. Or a Level 3 sentry gun that has been set up in full view of entrances. And more so, I am yet to see a pyro rush dominate a solder that understands rocket jumping and control.
I’m not sold. The pyro +50 hitpoints is the only thing that concerns me, and even that is slight. Never the less, keep up the great articles.
/Gentlemen
Pyrit responded on 25 Jun 2008 at 4:40 am #
Pyros are my second favourite class next to Demomen and I’ve been really looking forward to this update. The good thing about releasing the class updates one at a time is Valve get a chance to concentrate on just one class, and can try to make it better without needing to worry about dozens of classes at once. The down side, which is much more obvious, is the sudden rush and increase of Pyros flooding everywhere.
I think all the new weapons, with the exception of the backburner, are much more balanced than the medic ones. Most medics after unlocking the Blutsauger and the Ubersaw never look back on the old weapons (only the Kritzkrieg being the least used), but with the pyro update you have a few more choices.
The flare gun is a fun little gun. It’s so satisfying to ignite a sniper on the other end of a map. You can also, if used right, ambush people with it adding a bit more to the element of surprise the pyro has. However, it’s near useless for taking down fleeing enemies already ignited or other pyros.
The thing great about a pyro is less is better. A pyro is made for ambushing people, to surprise them; have them fleeing away from the frontline to give your team extra time. But when you start to get dozens and dozens of pyros, the surprise is lost and everyone is much more aware of the pyros presence. A bit like spies – if you have a team of half a dozen spies, the enemy is going to become really paranoid and start spy checking a lot more. Sometimes, less is more.
I’ve always been able to take down Heavy and Medic combos, even before the update was released. Not saying I’m some sort of God-like pyro who can make people combust into flames just by giving them an evil stare, but you just need to practice on how to use the class. I was actually very surprised about how unpopular the pyro actually was – everyone was saying he was too weak, not good, needs tweaking etc. I thought that the pyro wasn’t bad at all.
Pants_McGee responded on 25 Jun 2008 at 8:20 am #
Seeing how I beat my sniping kill record three times in one match of Goldrush, I’m going to say you could be wrong.
Dark Master responded on 25 Jun 2008 at 11:03 am #
Ok, I’ve looked over all of the people’s opinions on this blog, and this is what I’ve concluded:
-Everyone thinks that the pyro needed to be powered up, before this update.
-The air compresion blast was a stroke of genius.
-Most people think the 50hp boost should be 25.
-Most people think that the damage falloff should have been reduced, but not eliminated.
-A lot of people don’t like it that the solgier should have lost the 40% damage reduction, but there are quite a few people that disagree completly
Dark Master responded on 25 Jun 2008 at 11:06 am #
Now I’m going to say what I have to say about that last point:
I’m afraid that now it seems that when playing a solgier in a enclosed space (like the air ducts in turbine) is now suicide with the damage reduction removed. Its not that I think I should be able to fight a pyro when he’s right up to me, its that I don’t like dying by my own rockets when I’m trying to fight off somebody who just turned the corner, usualy I’m not fighting a pyro.
Sanns responded on 25 Jun 2008 at 12:04 pm #
“I’m afraid that now it seems that when playing a solgier in a enclosed space (like the air ducts in turbine) is now suicide with the damage reduction removed.”
I heard rumors that Valve was going to give the solgier a shotgun and a melee weapon to help compensate for the rocket launcher’s shortcomings. I also heard that they were going to modify all their official maps to provide multiple paths between key map points to give players the option to avoid tight enclosed spaces, should they chose.
BigJugs69 responded on 25 Jun 2008 at 11:18 pm #
“I heard rumors that Valve was going to give the solgier a shotgun and a melee weapon to help compensate for the rocket launcher’s shortcomings. I also heard that they were going to modify all their official maps to provide multiple paths between key map points to give players the option to avoid tight enclosed spaces, should they chose.”
When trying to engage in debate it’s best not to use sarcasm, the intent of which is usually to make fun of someone….
Anyway, you make valid point and that is that weapon choice is very important. Unfortunately it’s been my experience that the shotgun and melee weapon are pretty poor. The melee weapon is only useful at point blank range and the soldier is so slow you cant chase people down, so once you’re spotted you’re screwed.
The shotgun’s primary use appears to be to finish off retreating enemies. You might be able to do significant damage with it close range but, again, being so slow you just cannot keep an ememy in the killing range (unless they are clueless). Of course the situation would be different if they enabled instant weapon switch (please god no!!)
As I mentioned before the area between capture points on the first stage of dustbowl is murder right now, and there are no alternative routes. Besides the different routes are supposed to provide access to different area’s in the map, having ‘no go’ areas for soldiers doesnt seem too smart.
That said I feel I’m overstating the issue, it’s not really that bad. It’s taken an adjustement in playing style but it could be I still have a little further to go.
The jury’s still out.
As for the damage falloff, I think that was actually retarded. It was about as smart a move as if they’d taken away the soldier/demoman’s explosive damage fall off.
Josh responded on 26 Jun 2008 at 6:20 am #
The people who complain about the shotgun tend to be career soldier players. 6 out of 9 classes have the shotgun, but the soldiers are the only ones who act as if theirs is particularly bad.
BigJugs69 responded on 26 Jun 2008 at 8:06 am #
“The people who complain about the shotgun tend to be career soldier players. 6 out of 9 classes have the shotgun, but the soldiers are the only ones who act as if theirs is particularly bad.”
eh? Who’s complaining about the shotgun? It has it’s use, which is to finish off the wounded. Making the observation that it’s not an effective substitute is not a complaint about the shotgun, the post was lamenting the self damage nerf (where am I asking for the shotty to be buffed?).
PS: It’s not really relevent to the debate but would you care to name the six classes that carry the shotgun?
Sanns responded on 27 Jun 2008 at 3:21 am #
OK, I’ll be serious instead of sarcastic.
Yes, there are certain choke-points where enclosed spaces are unavailable. However, even in these cases, Valve has been very meticulous in providing multiple options, even between choke points. As you point out, you must take a tunnel to progress between A and B in Dustbowl 1–however, you have your choice of three different tunnels. Four if you count mid-right and far-right as different. These tunnels are high-risk for both sides, all classes. That doesn’t mean any particular class is at a disadvantage, it means that there is a high opportunity both for a easy kill and to be killed. There are plenty of times when I’ve turned defended this section and destroyed an unsuspecting attacker; there are also plenty of times when I’ve turned a corner and instantly found myself dead-to-rights.
To bring it back to the original complaint: yes, if you go soldier and equip rockets and go into these tunnels alone and turn a corner into an ambush, you are at a disadvantage. If this disturbs you that much, I advise you equip shotty while turning corners (yes its only effective at close range but that’s what you’re complaining about, right?). However, you’ll lose the opportunity to possibly catch someone unprepared at the far-end of the tunnel. It’s give-and-take. Personally, I play agressively and will take any opportunity to kill an opponent, even if I gib myself in the process, but that’s just me.
(Actually, the above is not a entirely fair statement–you aren’t “at a disadvantage” in close-quarters. Soldiers still deal massive damage up-close, its just that they have a much lower chance of surviving the encounter themselves. It hardly comparable to, say, catching a pyro at a distance or sneaking up close to a sniper or discovering a cloaked spy.)
Not Me responded on 27 Jun 2008 at 5:36 am #
I believe that the backburner should, if anything, give you a little bit of negative health, not positive. Upgrading your main weapon to be pretty much instant death and giving more health to boot is just too much. There needs to be a negative to go with the positive, and just eliminating the back blast isn’t enough. Nowadays I just keep dying like crazy every time I face a pyro. I used to have a least a sliver of a chance.
Anonymous responded on 27 Jun 2008 at 8:09 am #
you must really suck. Go fucking cry some more like the rest of the sperging babies who write on this blog
BigJugs69 responded on 27 Jun 2008 at 9:24 pm #
“OK, I’ll be serious instead of sarcastic.
Yes, there are certain choke-points where enclosed spaces are unavailable. However, even in these cases….”
That was a well constructed post, and you make some good points.
Having played some more I’ve found my survivability in such situations has improved a lot. Partly through tactics and partly through using the shotty at point blank range (where it’s devastating, although random shot pattern and collimation can make it a bit of a lottery).
I’d wanna play against people more my skill level but I’m definately seeing it as less of a constraint now.
However I still think that should put back some degree of damage falloff on the flame, it’s a lightsaber at the moment! And that’s from someone who’s being playing pyro excessively over that last few days
PS: Has anyone tested if you jump as you fire at someone do you still get the damage reduction?
Anonymous responded on 27 Jun 2008 at 10:08 pm #
Well, first of all, Pyro is a noob class. Even my grandmother can play with the Pyro. And she can do a lot of kills now, even against experienced players. And that’s exactly the problem.
People get to play well with Demoman, Soldier, Scout and etc, but it only needs 1 sec of distraction to a stupid Pyro noob to kill you, without any skill. They only need to press the shot button and follow you.
Another problem: it’s hard to distinguish wich Pyro you’re taking on, if its the 175hp or 225hp. That was pretty stupid from Valve. For 225hp, the Pyro should increase 30% in size too. He’s stronger than a Soldier now? Pathetic.
Minzerta2010 responded on 29 Jun 2008 at 11:00 am #
I personally think that the update was pretty good except for the backburner. It’s just too overpowered. If someone turns their back from a pyro they get automatic crits? Come now. Everyone want’s to run from a pyro when they’re on fire and sometimes they just wanna GTFO and not shoot em. Now what could work is if the backburner kept the health boost (though slightly less, 25 would be better) and had increased range. I think that damage fall off was a great idea for the pyro. It made it a class that required skill to master. If the backburner had no fall off and the old flamethrower retained the fall off i think that would make them more equal weapons.
So basically
Backburner: 25 more health, no fall off
Flamethrower: compression blast, fall off damage
I think that’s pretty equal, right?
Dark Master responded on 29 Jun 2008 at 1:59 pm #
I think I’ll add a little to what I said about the soldier earlier. I’ve noticed that the shotgun has become a lot more important for the soldier now (with the compressed air blast and all). However, I’ve got two experiances to talk about now:
On Goldrush, I can no longer try to stop the cart from moving while using rockets without inevitably killing myself. The shotgun just doesn’t cut it in this situation, because there will almost always be at least two people you have to fight.
Second, I think I’ve killed myself three or four times now from shooting scouts that managed to get infront of me in the heat of battle. We both die, but the soldier is so slow that he can’t really aford to be dying in such a stupid way.
The only exception to these events was when I had a medic on me, so I guess that soldiers are gonna hate the heavies on their team for taking away the medics they need to not kill themselves all the time.
Dave responded on 30 Jun 2008 at 12:40 am #
I agree with Supremesonic, perhaps due to my lack of experience with it, being a console-tard and all.
The Backburner makes things like they used to be, only you’re stronger, and if you play smart, you do better. It’s a “make everything better” weapon.
And the air blast seems like a shield from rockets that runs on ammo. I’m not sure how precise you need to be, but for an alert and competent pyro it seems very easy to deflct a rocket, so long as you see it.
Pyros (Pyroes? Plural plz?) seldom land surprise axe-blows on me, and if I’m on fire, I know he’s there. And when I see a pyro, I run, and then he has to catch me.
Again, I play on consoles, so everything I say is a distant observation, not opinions I formed after hours of fighting with and against the weapons.
Dave responded on 30 Jun 2008 at 12:43 am #
Also, damage falloff seems like a good thing. You had to GET CLOSE while using the AMBUSH CLASS.
Sanns responded on 02 Jul 2008 at 4:27 am #
Dave: I’m guessing you say that because you don’t play pyro much. Yes, the removal of damage falloff is slightly unfair in most situations (e.g., a pyro hids in a corner, waits for a medic+buddy to come around, and then lays out max damage to both simultameously). However, there some situations where pyros were really getting the short end of the stick–e.g., scouts who would keep medium-range on you w/ no fear of your flamer at all, or medics who would backpeddle while getting almost as much health back from their Blutsauger as you could deal out. These situations use to suck because, even if you lined up your attack well and caught your enemy from behind, he could get away alive as long as he reacted fast enough. IMHO, adding a change to balance these situations is justifiable even if it tips the scales a wee bit in other scenarios.
Dark Master responded on 02 Jul 2008 at 6:42 am #
Sanns, I agree that the pyro should have the edge in those situations, but right now, the other player has no chance even if the pyro runs right up to them. The damage falloff did need to be reduced, but not eliminated completly. I’ve found that no damage falloff gives the pyro a major edge against anyone using a shotgun too.
nicksdrago0 responded on 28 Dec 2008 at 6:08 am #
im going to have to say that although pyros arnt overpowered, all the updates have made the scout underpowered. a smart scout used to be able to bat a heavy to death quite well, only taking 1 or 2 bullets. but now the heavy has a new minigun, thats gone out. medic leaching health? scout has problems. and dont get me started on pyro vs scout.