I don’t get the mindset of Engineers…
No! Wait! Back off! I know a title like that is likely to get a lot of people angrily waving their wrenches at me and placing sentries outside my front door, but allow me to quickly clarify myself… I have nothing against those people who want to play Engineer. As far as I care, you can play any class you want as long at there aren’t fifteen other people also playing it. Nor do I think the Engineer is too powerful – I might curse when a well-placed sentry takes me down constantly, but I always know with a bit of skill and teamwork they’ll fall pretty quick. No, what I’m curious about is how people can play a class where the main aspect of what you do is stand in one place and constantly press the same button over and over again…
You see, to be good with the Engineer you need to make sure your buildings stay alive and are always in good working order. Yet since your buildings don’t have legs (Well, at least until the inevitable Engineer update…) that means that once you’ve built something you can’t really move away from it at any time. If you do, you’re making it a field day for spies to easily sap your equipment and then laugh as it blows up into little tiny pieces. So there you are, huddling behind your sentry for hours at a time and only flinching at the cries of “Spy!” that may filter through. But, alas! A Heavy has put a dent in your sentry! So you pick out your wrench and click on it. Fixed. Then the Heavy returns! Click. Oh, and there’s a sniper over there! Click. Oh, and here comes more enemies… Click. Click. Click. The same action over and over again without any real awesomeness occurring from it, while others on your time get the delights of backstabbing and burning at the real home of all the action.
Now, perhaps the strongest argument for playing the Engineer is that it helps your team to a great extent, especially when it comes to defending. This I cannot deny – In a lot of scenarios you practically need an Engineer to prevent really fast captures and humiliating defeats. Yet too many people think this is the only thing you can do to help, stubbornly placing their sentries in the same places over and over again even though the other team is systematically destroying everything in its path. I also believe too many people think this is the only way to actually defend in the first place, and it blatantly isn’t. Ignore the pointless way Valve separates the classes into those who attack, those who defend, and those who support – I play a defensive Scout a hell of a lot, and it works. You can rush back to a cap and make it if a Spy has been sneaky and got through, you can flank like mad and prevent the enemy even getting close to their objective, and you can generally cause havoc. The same goes for a class like the Pyro – These classes really do work as Swiss army knives as opposed to the single blade that is playing the Engineer.
There’s also the possibility to play the Engineer in certain ways that try to break the mould of sticking around in the same place, and I suppose that’s where it gets slightly more interesting. Rushing to place an effective exit teleporter without the rest of your stuff being destroyed can be tense, and the idea of an offensive Engineer is one that I’ve messed around with from time to time. There’s a problem with these breaks in monotony, though… The first is that no matter how often you do them, at some point you’ll still have to return to the dull grind of maintaining inanimate objects that are doing all the enjoyable killing for you. The second it that trying to go on the offence or doing new things with the class in general will never work as well, and will generally result in a disheartening death. Perhaps with little bits of your body flying all over the map. Besides, I think that if you want to go and kill stuff in a brutal manner, you should go the class best suited for the job – Like the Heavy. Trying to subvert the classes into what you want them to be, like battle Medics, just doesn’t sit well in the grand scheme of things.
Still, what do I know? I’ve never played the Engineer for great lengths of time, so perhaps there’s some deep philosophical stuff behind it that you can fill me in on. At least it’d make you stop hitting me with a wrench that crits with an annoying frequency…
supremesonic on June 19th 2008 in engineer, rants, team fortress 2
Stumble it!
Pinko responded on 19 Jun 2008 at 7:16 am #
I disagree, I think that good engineers are rarely behind their sentries.
Specifically on the second point on dustbowl, sentries can be helpful. Putting them in spots that are different from normal serve to offbalance the other team. However, remaining behind the sentry almost constantly makes absolutely no sense, and engineers have the shotgun which is a decent weapon for attacking. When I play engineer, I usually try and stay within about 50 to 100 yards of my sentry.
Offensive engineer is also ridiculously fun.
Suraj responded on 19 Jun 2008 at 7:33 am #
You can make the same argument for the Medic. Why run around healing people? A monotonous job with no rewards except maybe ubercharge but for that also you need other people.
Main thing about playing engineer is territory control. You are providing a safe zone for your teammates where they can retreat to lick their wounds and replenish their ammo. Try staging an attack on 2nd point of any Dustbowl stage without an engineer.
An engineer who is just staying behind sentry is like a demoman who lays stickies on the same spot and waits for someone to step on them.
Hain responded on 19 Jun 2008 at 7:37 am #
Yes you don’t do the actual killing, but it is fun to watch your sentry do the killing. The level 1 sentry has a nice slightly bass thud sound to it and bites bit by bit, while level 3 whirling rocket attack looks from my point of view like that pyro went down the drain. It’s like setting up the trap and waiting. And it’s not just waiting. Run around a bit fill them enemies bellies with lead, wrench teammates and do a hoedown every 10 seconds or so.
vbigiani responded on 19 Jun 2008 at 7:55 am #
Nothing is as rewarding as crit-wrenching half their team on the CP
citrusmirakel responded on 19 Jun 2008 at 8:07 am #
Clearly, you don’t understand the Zen of the Engineer.
RJ-Pilot responded on 19 Jun 2008 at 8:16 am #
I prefer the “Build ‘n’ go” tactic. Basically it involves getting the base camp set up (sentry-dispenser-teleport combo) then going off with the shotgun/pistol. And if my stuff does get sapped then so be it. Of course I do check back occasionally, but nothing beats the fun of pushing the bomb to the point on GoldRush as an engineer. Or setting up a sentry gun at the enemy team’s intelligence on 2fort…
Come to think of it, most of the sentries I build are in really stupid places…
Neuromante responded on 19 Jun 2008 at 8:18 am #
There’s a point in your argument, but there’ also a fun stress in a engy repairing a sentry while a ubered heavie it’s shooting the whole Shasha ammo count over you.. that moment, wrenching,when you think “Come on, bitch! don’t blow up now! don’t blow up!” and see the typical lone scout trying to get to the CP/Intel to get some rounds in his chest it’s always fun!
In addition, as engy it’s not advisable stay in the same spot; I use to patrol the surroundings, spy-checking everybody, and when stuff gets boring (defense) go to the front to kick some butts with the shottie (it’s a GOOD weapon).
And of course, you can try the “ninja teleport” trick: Defending any stage in dustbowl,in example, first point captured, cross the enemy lines and put a well-hidden teleporter. Then your team use it and we have some fun for all the team!
At least YOUR team,lol
Darth Butternutz responded on 19 Jun 2008 at 8:32 am #
To me, playing an engineer is a chore, somebody has to do it or it’s not getting done. You don’t always get rewarded for your job well done, but if you mess up, you’ll be the first one to hear about it. The life of the support class….
Murdoc responded on 19 Jun 2008 at 8:36 am #
I like to play engie a lot.
Sometimes its good to be able to take a little bit of a rest from running about killing stuff and have a little bit of a sit back and let the killing come to you.
When playing the more mobile classes i find it really useful to have a forward base (mostly on dustbowl or goldrush when playing blue and there are not dynamic spawn room locations depending on progress). Teleports are really important in keeping the troops at the front line, and the sentries just back from the action can often hamper an offensive defense strategy.
ShanDogs responded on 19 Jun 2008 at 9:59 am #
I agree with “RJ-Pilot”, you can’t beat a good build and go approach.
One approach is to build your stuff then push forward a little bit. When you see an enemy fire a few shots at him and ‘retreat’ (screaming help) if your lucky this will trick the enemy into chasing you back to your sentry.
Alternatively you can just try the all out rush… the key is to get close enough so your shotgun can do decent damage.
I’ve even taken this so far as to sneak behind enemy lines during a large battle and spawn camp. Drop your sentry on one side, dont worry about ‘building’ it and then move to the other side with shotty
Pinko responded on 19 Jun 2008 at 10:08 am #
@Suraj
I don’t think that an engineer is necessary at all to win the second stage of any dustbowl, definitely not the first or third stage. It’s useful to have on in the tunnel on the right side during the second stage, but certainly not necessary.
Galenor responded on 19 Jun 2008 at 10:34 am #
For me, it’s all about the Sentry.
I love playing Engineer. What you describe above is pretty much the generic Engie - build sentry on a spot that just about every Engineer uses from server to server, and whack that sentry.
Me? Well, i’ve been playing too long to get any fun out of slapping a sentry in the generic spot. I, instead, go on the hunt for The Perfect Sentry©.
I use the sentries range, the terrain, and the intensity of the fighting in that area to gauge whether or not this is The Perfect Sentry. Can Demomen sticky it easily? Can a sniper outrange it? Can Soldiers use splashdamage to get behind the sentry and kill ME? All these require a certain amount of cover.
But then, if you cover it too much, you may as well just put it in a box and let it shoot at walls all day. It’s that balance - exposing it so it can shoot, but not enough for it to be a sitting duck - that makes it all the better. And then there’s pondering on it’s predictability - is it on, or near, a place where sentries are usually built? Players often guess where sentries are (How many times can you say you HAVEN’T glanced at the balcony to the right of Dustbowl Point 1 while attacking?) and know how to destroy them. Putting it in an awkward place means surprise kills.
Of course, this all feels like a gamble. You won’t know your position’s weakness until a demoman thinks he can get a lark out of blowing you up. If he manages it, reconsider and rebuild.
But if you nail it - The Perfect Sentry - then it’s like watching a gambling machine spew out a jackpot. Your sentry goes ape and your kill record flies off the roof as Soldier after Scout after Medic take a full course of lead straight to the stomach.
And, well, you can’t help but feel proud of your little sentry.
And offensive engineering is great, especially when you’re trying to set up in a hot spot and need to build a sentry, dispenser, and teleporter exit in the drop of a hat. The fact that you have to improvise, and make do with what you have (or, if someone keeps nabbing the ammo boxes, what you DON’T have) makes it a real challenge to get this thing set up.
madlep responded on 19 Jun 2008 at 10:46 am #
Galenor is obviously a practitioner of the zen of engineering
Pad See Ew responded on 19 Jun 2008 at 1:44 pm #
Great comments, Galenor. For me, Engying can be an Excercise in Futility (I suggest this as an Engy achievement name). You definitely need help, in a way you didn’t with TFC’s emp grenades.
But I’m all for setting up, and “softening up” any opposition BEFORE they reach your lil’ precious.
BathrobeAssassin responded on 19 Jun 2008 at 2:00 pm #
When I Engie, I often will set up my gear (sometimes bar the Teleport Exit) and then forge ahead, endeavoring to find another spot further into the level that I can hold down. I then dismantle, set up, and repeat.
Sometimes I go with the flow of battle. If my equipment is behind enemy lines, my teammates taking heavy fire, and the battle looks lost, I will fall back to a secondary location and set up once again, so that any surviving members may retreat and heal while reenforcements arrive.
The Engie really shouldn’t engage foes too much on his lonesome. Crit Wrenches are awesome, but you can’t always count on them.
Personally, I love moving with another Engie or two, cutting through enemy lines, setting up, tearing down, providing Teleports further and further into enemy lines…
GoldMatenes responded on 19 Jun 2008 at 3:13 pm #
I run like hell out the gate, slam down my tele, am already refilled and ready to go.
Ignoring the other engies stumbling around taking up slots, I bust out my sentry in a strategic spot, dispenser to help my team, innocuous tele to screw with the enemy later. I experiment with locations, heights, viewpoints.
Then out comes the shotgun. I weaken anything before my sentry gets it. I wrench spies before they realize I notice them. I come roaring out like a wounded beast when my sentry falls and mow down 3 people with shotgun blasts, and immediately another sentry is going up, wrench swinging madly.
I act as an arbiter, monitoring enemy movements from above, warning my allies, providing a safe haven for them.
I arrive in a server playing a CTF map, and upon joining a team, I see people on the other team start bitching that they’ll never get a damn cap now.
If you’re bored playing Engi, you’re doing it wrong.
Anonymous responded on 19 Jun 2008 at 3:17 pm #
Two engies on the covered bridge on 2fort- 2 level 3 sentries tearing apart the enemy team= Heaven.
AndrewT responded on 19 Jun 2008 at 4:24 pm #
Engie is great when you’re baked and other classes just seem to complicated.
Notger responded on 19 Jun 2008 at 6:28 pm #
Supremesonic, you should watch your clan-engie play. He is famous for placing sentries in positions that are downright surprising.
Look for dp.Reutzel, dp.-REUTZEL- or just Reutzel and you will see a great engineer at work.
gryffinp responded on 20 Jun 2008 at 12:21 am #
While it’s true that it’s possible to play engineer in far more interesting ways, and I often do, I have to admit that it’s nice sometimes to set up a sentry in the basement of 2fort and enjoy the peace.
Pad See Ew responded on 20 Jun 2008 at 1:06 am #
Gryffinp, I feel the same way about 2fort (when I’m not lazily sniping on it). Also, I love getting OCD on Mach4. With the spawn locker so close to the defense, it makes it easy.
tomfin responded on 20 Jun 2008 at 6:30 am #
Zengineers, surely?
sigma83 responded on 20 Jun 2008 at 11:13 am #
Tomfin: I will be honest, I lol’ed.
Shrake12 responded on 20 Jun 2008 at 12:55 pm #
I’m an engie through and through, but I can see what Supremesonic is talking about. The Engineer is a class that is slower than the Heavy, immobile too some. He’s a fifth wheel on the front lines and as an engineer, I’ve found many an unneeded death after venturing with my Soldier and Scout comrades. He sits and wrenches off his stuff, as invisible as a Companion Cube Sniper.
But this is the beauty of it:
The engineer comes off to me as the possibly psychotic evil genius of TF2; he seems a gentleman with a comfy accent and cowboy gab, but how that image warps as I watch my mindless toy killing the other team. While the other teams lies bloody and broken, confused at their demise, the Engie hasn’t broken a sweat. His laughter and apparent glee at his self created cycle of death, war, and splattering rival that of the pyro. Playing out the persona of the scholarly killer is the fun of Engineer.
On a side note…
Whilst playing Spy, I noticed I had begun to use my experience as an Engie to find weakness in other engineers’ fortresses.
Neat huh?
supremesonic responded on 20 Jun 2008 at 7:31 pm #
I suppose after reading all these comments I’ll have to give the Engineer another go some time soon… I don’t know if I’ll like it or not still, but at least you’ve all given me arguments that make me more inclined to play the class.
It’ll always be Scouts and Demomen for me in the end, though. =P
DeadEye Max responded on 22 Jun 2008 at 9:03 am #
YOU WOULD BE SUPRISED BY HOW MANY ATTACKS WE HAVE TO REPEL
Deadeye max responded on 22 Jun 2008 at 9:04 am #
sorry, caps lock.
Therealjoe responded on 23 Jun 2008 at 7:13 am #
When you have had a hard day and feel like a relaxing and therapeutic game of team fortress 2 you play engineer. There are times when you see your teleport counter hit 20 and you are satisfied that your team appreciates the quick route which you have formed with your engineering skills. There are other times when you stop a enemy rush by building a sentry in a key position and frantically hold off the sappers and spies. You are the thin line between winning and losing.
Anonymous responded on 24 Jun 2008 at 9:17 am #
Find a buddy u can talk to on xfire and work together to build sentrys inside or around the other teams spawns yes u die but since u have the team stuck in a building u cna continue to put up a decent fight and as u both teleport bakc others join in the fight and seeing a sentry light up scout sending him flying 75ft through the air against leaving him limp against a wall is always enjoyable
Anony1200 responded on 24 Jun 2008 at 12:09 pm #
You know what’s fun?Placing a sentry down right in front of an enemy base.Until they find a soldier that can fend off you and the sentry(You just going to take it while he’s blowing up your kill machine?),you watch and laugh.
Take note,however,this works best with Mario Kart,Goldrush,and 2fort(Backwards:in front of your base) in that order.
MythMonk responded on 20 Nov 2008 at 6:00 am #
You can make the same argument about anything, really, because how do you attack with any weapon?
Click.
Until someone comes up with a wiimote mod so you actually do the backstabbing motion, anyway.